Erica Chenoweth

methods of inducing defections.

And particularly, I think, for the business community, they were saying that sometimes more private, behind-the-scenes, quiet organizing and persuasion work is going to go a longer way than kind of public adversarial approaches.

Now, there's always going to be

A range, right, of interests and where different businesses and corporations place themselves on that spectrum.

And the ones that are the most tightly aligned with an authoritarian or aspiring authoritarian regime are going to be the hardest to...

get at.

But others who are a little bit further or just trying to stay out of the fray or whatever, those are the ones to sort of think about focusing on first.

And then, you know, the more adversarial approaches then can be applied to those who are kind of further along in the sort of authoritarian direction.

So I think that's an intriguing proposition.

And it hasn't been fully, you know, tested in the U.S.

case, I think, but is an interesting way to think about it.

Do you mean on the infrastructure side or on the tactical and strategic side?

Okay.

If it's on the infrastructure side, it's an interesting...

question about, like, what capacities are needed right now and at what scale.

And I think that, you know, my argument would be that in other cases where we've seen successful kind of democratic U-turns take place, usually there's been some kind of umbrella formation, like the United Democratic Front and South Africa, or like it's

comparison in Chile under Pinochet.

Or more recently in South Korea, there was sort of a united alliance.

And I would argue that we need some kind of umbrella formation that's giving shape to what already exists in the U.S., which is a huge number of ingredients for what makes for a successful democracy movement.

And I think that in terms of the capacities needed, you know, there's clearly the sort of mobilization capacity that exists already, but then also kind of an ability to communicate broadly about what's happening in a way that brings common knowledge to the population at large about, you know,