Ezra Klein

I've seen arguments, Matt Iglesias made this point that there is a generalized sense on the right that you need to question the foundational, what they see as myth or rationale of modern liberalism, which is that the Nazis are bad and the worst thing that can happen is Hitler. And in this effort to be completely uncensored, it's like, well, this is the last taboo and it needs to be broken, right?

I've seen arguments, Matt Iglesias made this point that there is a generalized sense on the right that you need to question the foundational, what they see as myth or rationale of modern liberalism, which is that the Nazis are bad and the worst thing that can happen is Hitler. And in this effort to be completely uncensored, it's like, well, this is the last taboo and it needs to be broken, right?

What do you think is going on there?

What do you think is going on there?

a conversation.

a conversation.

Yeah, the righteous beliefs. Right. I want to go back to those disappearances because this is a thing I thought about when I read your piece too, Zach. Yeah. You know the old William Gibson line, the future is here, it's just unevenly distributed?

Yeah, the righteous beliefs. Right. I want to go back to those disappearances because this is a thing I thought about when I read your piece too, Zach. Yeah. You know the old William Gibson line, the future is here, it's just unevenly distributed?

I think one way to look at the moment is authoritarianism is here, it's just unevenly distributed. Yeah. That, yes, on the one hand, you can be you and me and Andrew sitting here on a podcast in the New York Times Citadel talking about authoritarianism. Or you could be one of these kids at Columbia doing a pro-Palestinian protest marched into a detention center. And there is this effort.

I think one way to look at the moment is authoritarianism is here, it's just unevenly distributed. Yeah. That, yes, on the one hand, you can be you and me and Andrew sitting here on a podcast in the New York Times Citadel talking about authoritarianism. Or you could be one of these kids at Columbia doing a pro-Palestinian protest marched into a detention center. And there is this effort.

on the part of the administration, they, I think, want to gear up for mass deportations. But before they've had the capacity to do that, what they're trying to create is a regime of fear. And they're creating a regime of fear with tactics that are much more authoritarian, even totalitarian, than I would have seen coming.

on the part of the administration, they, I think, want to gear up for mass deportations. But before they've had the capacity to do that, what they're trying to create is a regime of fear. And they're creating a regime of fear with tactics that are much more authoritarian, even totalitarian, than I would have seen coming.

I mean, the photo of Christine Noem, the Secretary of Homeland Security, at the El Salvadoran prison, with all these prisoners stacked behind her for the photo op. The usage of foreign disappearance as a tool of domestic fear. Trump having that meeting with Bukele, saying that he would want to send Americans to Bukele's prisons.

I mean, the photo of Christine Noem, the Secretary of Homeland Security, at the El Salvadoran prison, with all these prisoners stacked behind her for the photo op. The usage of foreign disappearance as a tool of domestic fear. Trump having that meeting with Bukele, saying that he would want to send Americans to Bukele's prisons.

It sits in uneasy tension with the idea that this is failing because in some cases it's going further than you could have imagined, further than I thought they would have been able to or even would have wanted to.

It sits in uneasy tension with the idea that this is failing because in some cases it's going further than you could have imagined, further than I thought they would have been able to or even would have wanted to.

The thing about Bukele, and I think this is important for something that you touched on a second ago, Andrew, is Bukele is popular. He is overwhelmingly popular. Viktor Orban has been popular. You mentioned a second ago him winning re-election at a time when the opposition thought it was massing an effective case against him. Modi is hugely popular. Modi is hugely popular.

The thing about Bukele, and I think this is important for something that you touched on a second ago, Andrew, is Bukele is popular. He is overwhelmingly popular. Viktor Orban has been popular. You mentioned a second ago him winning re-election at a time when the opposition thought it was massing an effective case against him. Modi is hugely popular. Modi is hugely popular.

The thing about Trump is that they are not, as best we can tell, conserving popularity or building on it. There is a version of this. I mean, Trump came in more popular in his second term than he was in his first. He came in with allies he didn't have in his first term. And they are spending that popularity very quickly. Some of it is on overreach, like the Obrego-Garcia case.

The thing about Trump is that they are not, as best we can tell, conserving popularity or building on it. There is a version of this. I mean, Trump came in more popular in his second term than he was in his first. He came in with allies he didn't have in his first term. And they are spending that popularity very quickly. Some of it is on overreach, like the Obrego-Garcia case.