Ezra Klein

Jackson is interesting, I think, in this moment particularly, because he is very explicitly talked about as a model for Donald Trump. Trump restored his portrait to the Oval Office. When you hear Trump and the people around him, like Steve Bannon in the first term, who talk a lot about Jackson, who lionize Jackson, what do you hear them connecting to in him?

Jackson is interesting, I think, in this moment particularly, because he is very explicitly talked about as a model for Donald Trump. Trump restored his portrait to the Oval Office. When you hear Trump and the people around him, like Steve Bannon in the first term, who talk a lot about Jackson, who lionize Jackson, what do you hear them connecting to in him?

Let me move forward in time a bit to the Red Scare. You spend some real time in the book on the Palma raids in 1919 and 1920. What were they?

Let me move forward in time a bit to the Red Scare. You spend some real time in the book on the Palma raids in 1919 and 1920. What were they?

Speaking of fascism, you have this argument that in the 20s, you have prohibition, as you're saying, the second KKK. You argue that, quote, Right. Why?

Speaking of fascism, you have this argument that in the 20s, you have prohibition, as you're saying, the second KKK. You argue that, quote, Right. Why?

I mean, doesn't Hitler praise American immigration policy in this period?

I mean, doesn't Hitler praise American immigration policy in this period?

But flip it, because I think so often in politics, particularly those of us who like thinking about ideas, we think about the supply side, not the demand side, to be an economist about it. We think about what politicians and political movements are offering. But those offerings only matter, right? If they meet or create demand. And so, yes, what was happening in America is not Italian fascism.

But flip it, because I think so often in politics, particularly those of us who like thinking about ideas, we think about the supply side, not the demand side, to be an economist about it. We think about what politicians and political movements are offering. But those offerings only matter, right? If they meet or create demand. And so, yes, what was happening in America is not Italian fascism.

It's not Nazism. It's not anything that is anywhere else because we have our own context. But there is a demand for something.

It's not Nazism. It's not anything that is anywhere else because we have our own context. But there is a demand for something.

that is at least in an early way speaking to similar anxieties, speaking to similar views about belonging, speaking to similar fears about what will happen to a country if it becomes too multicultural or the power structure changes too much or the wrong kinds of people are voting.

that is at least in an early way speaking to similar anxieties, speaking to similar views about belonging, speaking to similar fears about what will happen to a country if it becomes too multicultural or the power structure changes too much or the wrong kinds of people are voting.

I always think we make this mistake that we're so focused on what the politicians say that we forget that what they say only matters if it matches what the voters want.

I always think we make this mistake that we're so focused on what the politicians say that we forget that what they say only matters if it matches what the voters want.

Tell me about the Johnson-Reed Act of 1924.

Tell me about the Johnson-Reed Act of 1924.

We're talking here about substance. One thing that surprises me is that there is a style to a liberalism that recurs over place and time. And it's probably a good time to bring in Joseph McCarthy, who he's a politician and a political force, I think a much bigger political force and is now remembered. And he's remembered for, you know, communist witch hunting.

We're talking here about substance. One thing that surprises me is that there is a style to a liberalism that recurs over place and time. And it's probably a good time to bring in Joseph McCarthy, who he's a politician and a political force, I think a much bigger political force and is now remembered. And he's remembered for, you know, communist witch hunting.