Ezra Klein

He's also a very early example of a populist style that Trump fits very well into. And it gets embraced by elite dimensions of conservatism. William F. Buckley writes a book sort of, it's sort of anti-anti-McCarthy is the way I would put it. Like, okay, yeah, McCarthy maybe goes a bit too far, but the people who oppose him are the real problem, which is a very common form of Donald Trump defense.

He's also a very early example of a populist style that Trump fits very well into. And it gets embraced by elite dimensions of conservatism. William F. Buckley writes a book sort of, it's sort of anti-anti-McCarthy is the way I would put it. Like, okay, yeah, McCarthy maybe goes a bit too far, but the people who oppose him are the real problem, which is a very common form of Donald Trump defense.

Tell me a bit about McCarthy's political style, the anti-elitism of it, the populism of it, the way he wraps up his illiberalism.

Tell me a bit about McCarthy's political style, the anti-elitism of it, the populism of it, the way he wraps up his illiberalism.

I want to hold on the anti-elitism and the anti-institutionalism of him for a second, because one way I've heard McCarthy being brought up as a referent to what is happening now is, look, he was on the hunt for communists. There were communists at different layers of American life.

I want to hold on the anti-elitism and the anti-institutionalism of him for a second, because one way I've heard McCarthy being brought up as a referent to what is happening now is, look, he was on the hunt for communists. There were communists at different layers of American life.

And he also had a broader view, as did many others in conservatism at that time, that the big institutions of American life had been captured. And, you know, the culture had been captured in Hollywood and the universities were captured. Maybe even the government was captured, too.

And he also had a broader view, as did many others in conservatism at that time, that the big institutions of American life had been captured. And, you know, the culture had been captured in Hollywood and the universities were captured. Maybe even the government was captured, too.

And the hunt for communists, which I've seen people analogizing now to the hunt for people who believe in DEI or anti-Semites or wokeness, also became a way to break open these institutions, to use the power of the state to cow them and to force them to come back into some kind of alignment. Mm-hmm.

And the hunt for communists, which I've seen people analogizing now to the hunt for people who believe in DEI or anti-Semites or wokeness, also became a way to break open these institutions, to use the power of the state to cow them and to force them to come back into some kind of alignment. Mm-hmm.

Or at least stop opposing the alignment with what McCarthy represented and the political tendencies that he fought for. How valid do you think that analogy is?

Or at least stop opposing the alignment with what McCarthy represented and the political tendencies that he fought for. How valid do you think that analogy is?

One of the things we're seeing now is different institutions in American life having to make this choice. Do they try to make a deal with the administration? Do they try to bend the knee to the administration? Or do they fight? Harvard just decided to fight In the McCarthy era, how would you tell that story of the institutional response? What was the period?

One of the things we're seeing now is different institutions in American life having to make this choice. Do they try to make a deal with the administration? Do they try to bend the knee to the administration? Or do they fight? Harvard just decided to fight In the McCarthy era, how would you tell that story of the institutional response? What was the period?

Were they lockstep in trying to submit to this until something changed? What can be learned from that now?

Were they lockstep in trying to submit to this until something changed? What can be learned from that now?

So we've been talking here about political figures and political groups, McCarthy, Jackson, the Ku Klux Klan, that to the extent people think about an illiberal tradition, they all fit very squarely in it. One of the points of your book is that liberalism and illiberalism are often braided together in the same people. So around this time, we have Japanese internment.

So we've been talking here about political figures and political groups, McCarthy, Jackson, the Ku Klux Klan, that to the extent people think about an illiberal tradition, they all fit very squarely in it. One of the points of your book is that liberalism and illiberalism are often braided together in the same people. So around this time, we have Japanese internment.

And you have over 100,000 people, many, many, many of them citizens, rounded up and put in camps. No due process, no ability to have a court decide if they were actually a threat to the country. And this is done by liberal hero FDR. How do you think about what leads to that?

And you have over 100,000 people, many, many, many of them citizens, rounded up and put in camps. No due process, no ability to have a court decide if they were actually a threat to the country. And this is done by liberal hero FDR. How do you think about what leads to that?