Ezra Klein

Another way that I think that same dynamic can be read, and here I'm not supporting Japanese internment, but I do want to raise this as a question, is that the liberals who are nationally successful often contain some of this countercurrent inside of them.

Another way that I think that same dynamic can be read, and here I'm not supporting Japanese internment, but I do want to raise this as a question, is that the liberals who are nationally successful often contain some of this countercurrent inside of them.

that you are describing such a strong and present and enduring ideological faction in American politics that it isn't going to be a surprise that FDR, that Lyndon Johnson, who contains the American South inside of him,

that you are describing such a strong and present and enduring ideological faction in American politics that it isn't going to be a surprise that FDR, that Lyndon Johnson, who contains the American South inside of him,

That, you know, Bill Clinton, in a very different way, who's sort of a merger of unusual currents, that Barack Obama, who part of what his genius is, is being able to speak to the white and Black story and fears and anxieties and politics at the same time.

That, you know, Bill Clinton, in a very different way, who's sort of a merger of unusual currents, that Barack Obama, who part of what his genius is, is being able to speak to the white and Black story and fears and anxieties and politics at the same time.

Then much of what ends up getting remembered as disappointing about them, I think from a different perspective, has been a pluralism that I think their defenders certainly would say kept some of these other currents in check.

Then much of what ends up getting remembered as disappointing about them, I think from a different perspective, has been a pluralism that I think their defenders certainly would say kept some of these other currents in check.

because it sort of drained some of their opponents of power. Definitely Bill Clinton's defenders often say to me, I had Rahm Emanuel on the show, he said this explicitly, look, this is the guy who took crime and immigration off the table as weaknesses and welfare for the Democratic Party. And that's how Democrats came back to national power.

because it sort of drained some of their opponents of power. Definitely Bill Clinton's defenders often say to me, I had Rahm Emanuel on the show, he said this explicitly, look, this is the guy who took crime and immigration off the table as weaknesses and welfare for the Democratic Party. And that's how Democrats came back to national power.

And now it's looked back on as a terrible set of compromises, but the alternative was losing to these ideas. How do you think about that tension?

And now it's looked back on as a terrible set of compromises, but the alternative was losing to these ideas. How do you think about that tension?

I think this starts to bring us into something more modern. Trump often references an immigration policy called Operation Wetback. Operation Wetback comes under President Dwight Eisenhower, who we now look back on as this icon of moderate Republicanism, even maybe a liberal Republican. We quote his speech about the defense industrial complex. What was Operation Wetback?

I think this starts to bring us into something more modern. Trump often references an immigration policy called Operation Wetback. Operation Wetback comes under President Dwight Eisenhower, who we now look back on as this icon of moderate Republicanism, even maybe a liberal Republican. We quote his speech about the defense industrial complex. What was Operation Wetback?

One thing in that era, though, is you have American citizens being deported. And one reason I'm interested in it, in addition to the fact that Trump allies use it as an example now, is that it's a reminder that we have done deportations in violations of rights people were assumed to have had many, many, many times before.

One thing in that era, though, is you have American citizens being deported. And one reason I'm interested in it, in addition to the fact that Trump allies use it as an example now, is that it's a reminder that we have done deportations in violations of rights people were assumed to have had many, many, many times before.

One thing you're gesturing at here, which I think is important, is the way in which we seem to phase in and out of periods. And oftentimes, even from a decade before what you're in, what you're about to be in feels unimaginable. And so, I mean, we talked about the Palma raids. They lead, in a sense, to the founding of the ACLU.

One thing you're gesturing at here, which I think is important, is the way in which we seem to phase in and out of periods. And oftentimes, even from a decade before what you're in, what you're about to be in feels unimaginable. And so, I mean, we talked about the Palma raids. They lead, in a sense, to the founding of the ACLU.

We're talking about Operation Wetback, but it's just over a decade later that LBJ overturns the Johnson-Reed Act and those sort of racist quotas dissolve, at least for that period of time. And so how do you think about this question of the cycles of it? Is it a pendulum that one action creates a backlash? Is it much more contingent and unpredictable than that?

We're talking about Operation Wetback, but it's just over a decade later that LBJ overturns the Johnson-Reed Act and those sort of racist quotas dissolve, at least for that period of time. And so how do you think about this question of the cycles of it? Is it a pendulum that one action creates a backlash? Is it much more contingent and unpredictable than that?