Ezra Klein

That's what we should excavate. So when you say that, what are you looking towards?

That's what we should excavate. So when you say that, what are you looking towards?

But I guess that's what I'm getting at here about this embodying of the contradiction. Something that I was thinking about reading your book a lot, and it relates to my own struggle with the realization that there is no final victory.

But I guess that's what I'm getting at here about this embodying of the contradiction. Something that I was thinking about reading your book a lot, and it relates to my own struggle with the realization that there is no final victory.

And that if you understand the kinds of politics, the liberal currents that you're writing about, the field of force, I think you called it, which I liked, if you understand it is ever-present, the political scientist Larry Patel talks about the populist right as a reservoir, not a wave, but a reservoir that's always there to tap into, then it becomes more obvious in a way that

And that if you understand the kinds of politics, the liberal currents that you're writing about, the field of force, I think you called it, which I liked, if you understand it is ever-present, the political scientist Larry Patel talks about the populist right as a reservoir, not a wave, but a reservoir that's always there to tap into, then it becomes more obvious in a way that

that the national figures who can lead in this country will have to embody some of the contradictions. The idea that you will have a pure movement is not going to happen.

that the national figures who can lead in this country will have to embody some of the contradictions. The idea that you will have a pure movement is not going to happen.

And the reason why the pure movements tend to fail is that politics is about the contradictions and it's about absorbing them, hopefully in a way that, you know, moves them more towards justice and just outcomes and vision and the things that I would like to see in the world too. But I guess that sort of movement between, This illiberalism is always here and always powerful.

And the reason why the pure movements tend to fail is that politics is about the contradictions and it's about absorbing them, hopefully in a way that, you know, moves them more towards justice and just outcomes and vision and the things that I would like to see in the world too. But I guess that sort of movement between, This illiberalism is always here and always powerful.

And so sort of almost anybody you look at has had to embody some of its contradictions, even if they're pushing away from it. And then also the sort of political verdict that... Well, isn't there something that doesn't have any of these contradictions that we can use as the weapon that will finally win?

And so sort of almost anybody you look at has had to embody some of its contradictions, even if they're pushing away from it. And then also the sort of political verdict that... Well, isn't there something that doesn't have any of these contradictions that we can use as the weapon that will finally win?

I'm curious how you resolve that because you're the person, not me, who's been sitting in like every single decade of American history is full of a very potent illiberalism that nobody ever quite seems to be able to push into the back room for very long.

I'm curious how you resolve that because you're the person, not me, who's been sitting in like every single decade of American history is full of a very potent illiberalism that nobody ever quite seems to be able to push into the back room for very long.

I think that's a good place to end. Always our final question. What are three books you'd recommend to the audience? Okay.

I think that's a good place to end. Always our final question. What are three books you'd recommend to the audience? Okay.

Stephen Hahn, thank you very much. Thank you. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.

Stephen Hahn, thank you very much. Thank you. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.

From New York Times Opinion, this is The Ezra Klein Show. The emergency is here. The crisis is now. It's not six months away. It's not another Supreme Court ruling from happening. It is happening now. Maybe not to you, not yet, but to others, to real people whose names we know, whose stories we know.

From New York Times Opinion, this is The Ezra Klein Show. The emergency is here. The crisis is now. It's not six months away. It's not another Supreme Court ruling from happening. It is happening now. Maybe not to you, not yet, but to others, to real people whose names we know, whose stories we know.