Ezra Klein

Self seems to be still working in my life.

And I wanted to talk to her about that.

And she had described her retreat center, which is called Upaya, it's in Santa Fe, as a factory for the deconstruction of selves.

I was like, oh, that sounds interesting.

I should go get deconstructed.

So that's why I went.

And I got there and I spent a couple of days with the adepts and the monks.

But then she said, you know, I think we should go up to the retreat.

And she said, we'll go up there and you'll stay in the cave.

And I'm like, the cave?

That's like not my kind of thing.

I'm not a camper.

And she said, don't worry, it's a five-star cave.

So we get there.

And then after this 25-mile dirt road, and then there's another half-mile hike out to the cave.

And there's no electricity and there's no running water.

And somebody's dug into this hillside, these caves, and with a glass door on one side overlooking this meadow.

And there I was for the next three or four days.

And she kept ducking my interviews.

And at one point she said, I've divested of meaning.