Ezra Klein

The thing that was missed in that is the thing that you're pointing out in some of these columns, that we sort of imagine, because this is how it has worked here, that the sophistication of the economy and what it can create and the living standards that that economy generates for its own people will be very tightly linked.

The thing that was missed in that is the thing that you're pointing out in some of these columns, that we sort of imagine, because this is how it has worked here, that the sophistication of the economy and what it can create and the living standards that that economy generates for its own people will be very tightly linked.

And so as their living standards have not advanced in the way we thought, I think a view took hold that the Chinese experiment was not working out. At the same time, if you go and look at what they are creating and their factories and their industrial base, they are at the forefront of a series of technologies that are competing with us within months on AI, right?

And so as their living standards have not advanced in the way we thought, I think a view took hold that the Chinese experiment was not working out. At the same time, if you go and look at what they are creating and their factories and their industrial base, they are at the forefront of a series of technologies that are competing with us within months on AI, right?

The AI timelines for the two countries are months apart, if that. And then, as you've mentioned, they're probably ahead of us at this point on batteries, on electric vehicles. Oh, not even close, yeah. And on the ability to spin up highly complex supply chains, right? I guess the question here is how can those two things coexist in this way?

The AI timelines for the two countries are months apart, if that. And then, as you've mentioned, they're probably ahead of us at this point on batteries, on electric vehicles. Oh, not even close, yeah. And on the ability to spin up highly complex supply chains, right? I guess the question here is how can those two things coexist in this way?

I think people are used to thinking about the pink backpack with a button. I think they're not used to thinking about the dark factory or the new Huawei campus. Yeah. What is a dark factory and what is it like to be in one? And what was that Huawei campus that you went to like and what did you take away from that experience?

I think people are used to thinking about the pink backpack with a button. I think they're not used to thinking about the dark factory or the new Huawei campus. Yeah. What is a dark factory and what is it like to be in one? And what was that Huawei campus that you went to like and what did you take away from that experience?

Well, that maybe gets us to current policy. It's very hard right now to podcast about trade policy. We're recording this on Wednesday, April 9th. It'll come out Tuesday of next week, so six days later. God knows what will happen if we recorded this morning. It would have been a different podcast than it is now. But after tanking global markets for a week, then beginning to see the U.S.

Well, that maybe gets us to current policy. It's very hard right now to podcast about trade policy. We're recording this on Wednesday, April 9th. It'll come out Tuesday of next week, so six days later. God knows what will happen if we recorded this morning. It would have been a different podcast than it is now. But after tanking global markets for a week, then beginning to see the U.S.

bond markets unravel, the Trump administration did a 90-day pause on tariffs on countries that have not retaliated, which is just a generally strange concept. But double down on Chinese tariffs, right? I think it's up to 125%, something in that range. China is retaliating against us. The Trump administration's broad view, articulated by J.D.

bond markets unravel, the Trump administration did a 90-day pause on tariffs on countries that have not retaliated, which is just a generally strange concept. But double down on Chinese tariffs, right? I think it's up to 125%, something in that range. China is retaliating against us. The Trump administration's broad view, articulated by J.D.

Vance and others, is that at the center of their entire trade strategy has been that we need to build all this in America again. And that the way to do this is very high tariffs, incredibly high on China specifically, but also, frankly, on the rest of the world. Because what you're trying to do is bring it all back here. And that is a way of making us capable of competing with China again.

Vance and others, is that at the center of their entire trade strategy has been that we need to build all this in America again. And that the way to do this is very high tariffs, incredibly high on China specifically, but also, frankly, on the rest of the world. Because what you're trying to do is bring it all back here. And that is a way of making us capable of competing with China again.

There's a series of papers out there that make this argument that China has a kind of hegemonic level of dominance over global manufacturing. They're not the only manufacturers, but they have primacy there. And we have it on the financial architecture of the world. And in this theory, what Trump and his team are trying to do is take manufacturing back from China.

There's a series of papers out there that make this argument that China has a kind of hegemonic level of dominance over global manufacturing. They're not the only manufacturers, but they have primacy there. And we have it on the financial architecture of the world. And in this theory, what Trump and his team are trying to do is take manufacturing back from China.

Do you think their theory makes sense?

Do you think their theory makes sense?

But you are not all for building a wall with China. You're making an argument that even among Democrats, I think, is somewhat more subversive right now, which is that if you were a serious person, you would do with China what we did with Japan in the 90s, which is, by the way, when Donald Trump came up with all of his trade theories.

But you are not all for building a wall with China. You're making an argument that even among Democrats, I think, is somewhat more subversive right now, which is that if you were a serious person, you would do with China what we did with Japan in the 90s, which is, by the way, when Donald Trump came up with all of his trade theories.