Ezra Klein

where he's been tearing into the theory behind this kind of tariff policy, but then also the very strange reality, the practical tariffs that have now been announced and trying to understand what led to this package instead of one of the packages that might have more cleanly accomplished the goals that Donald Trump and the people around him say they are seeking.

where he's been tearing into the theory behind this kind of tariff policy, but then also the very strange reality, the practical tariffs that have now been announced and trying to understand what led to this package instead of one of the packages that might have more cleanly accomplished the goals that Donald Trump and the people around him say they are seeking.

As always, my email, EzraKleinShow at NYTimes.com. Paul Krugman, welcome back to the show. Hi, good to be on again. So let's just start with what Donald Trump actually announced on Liberation Day.

As always, my email, EzraKleinShow at NYTimes.com. Paul Krugman, welcome back to the show. Hi, good to be on again. So let's just start with what Donald Trump actually announced on Liberation Day.

How does the tariff country by country seem to have been calculated?

How does the tariff country by country seem to have been calculated?

It's a podcast. We put the little explicit tag up.

It's a podcast. We put the little explicit tag up.

I guess you could say that. The implication of it is that you can understand why you might say a tariff on America is bad. That's locking up the goods that might flow into another country or a service that might flow into another country. But what they're saying is something subtly different, which is that if we have a trade deficit with anybody, that is bad.

I guess you could say that. The implication of it is that you can understand why you might say a tariff on America is bad. That's locking up the goods that might flow into another country or a service that might flow into another country. But what they're saying is something subtly different, which is that if we have a trade deficit with anybody, that is bad.

And it should be treated as evidence of market discrimination or at least something we want to fix. So this gets, as you like to say, wonkish. But what is a trade deficit? What is a trade balance? And Is it a bad thing when we have one with someone else?

And it should be treated as evidence of market discrimination or at least something we want to fix. So this gets, as you like to say, wonkish. But what is a trade deficit? What is a trade balance? And Is it a bad thing when we have one with someone else?

One of the things flying around social media has been that if you went and you asked the various leading AI programs, ChatGPT and Gemini and Claude, and you said, what's a pretty simple way to calculate tariffs on all other countries? It will offer you basically this calculation that you used. And I think that raises two questions, which is, one, did we just have –

One of the things flying around social media has been that if you went and you asked the various leading AI programs, ChatGPT and Gemini and Claude, and you said, what's a pretty simple way to calculate tariffs on all other countries? It will offer you basically this calculation that you used. And I think that raises two questions, which is, one, did we just have –

A global economic crisis created by some Doge interns asking Chachi PT how to calculate tariffs. But two, if that's what these systems trained on the inhaled output, I guess, of all economists writing online say you should do, is there something to it? Is there some...

A global economic crisis created by some Doge interns asking Chachi PT how to calculate tariffs. But two, if that's what these systems trained on the inhaled output, I guess, of all economists writing online say you should do, is there something to it? Is there some...

steel man case that this is a pretty straightforward, simple way to think about tariffs on other countries, that there is an argument for it. The liberals are missing, as we sort of point out, differences between, you know, words and policies here.

steel man case that this is a pretty straightforward, simple way to think about tariffs on other countries, that there is an argument for it. The liberals are missing, as we sort of point out, differences between, you know, words and policies here.

How are markets responding and what do you take from their response? One thing that I have thought is when you listen to their justifications, they'll say things like, well, we're trying to rebuild American manufacturing. We've shipped American manufacturing overseas.

How are markets responding and what do you take from their response? One thing that I have thought is when you listen to their justifications, they'll say things like, well, we're trying to rebuild American manufacturing. We've shipped American manufacturing overseas.