Ezra Klein

In Vox, Zach Beecham wrote this piece called, "'Trump is Losing.'" Beecham is an expert on competitive authoritarianism, the slide away from democracy and into something very different. His book, The Reactionary Spirit, looks at the way this has been happening worldwide. And his recent piece says, eh, it doesn't look like it's happening. That Trump is losing.

In Vox, Zach Beecham wrote this piece called, "'Trump is Losing.'" Beecham is an expert on competitive authoritarianism, the slide away from democracy and into something very different. His book, The Reactionary Spirit, looks at the way this has been happening worldwide. And his recent piece says, eh, it doesn't look like it's happening. That Trump is losing.

That if you think that what he is trying to do is consolidate a certain kind of power to fundamentally change the nature of how America works, that he is facing the kind of opposition that does not look surmountable. In The New Yorker, Andrew Morantz wrote a similar piece, but from a very different place, from Hungary. where it already did happen.

That if you think that what he is trying to do is consolidate a certain kind of power to fundamentally change the nature of how America works, that he is facing the kind of opposition that does not look surmountable. In The New Yorker, Andrew Morantz wrote a similar piece, but from a very different place, from Hungary. where it already did happen.

And I've read a thousand pieces on Hungary at this point. But this one gave me this felt sense of the way in which when this kind of authoritarian breakthrough succeeds, it may not feel in the moment like it is succeeding. Even after it has succeeded, it may not feel the way you think.

And I've read a thousand pieces on Hungary at this point. But this one gave me this felt sense of the way in which when this kind of authoritarian breakthrough succeeds, it may not feel in the moment like it is succeeding. Even after it has succeeded, it may not feel the way you think.

You can still be there in the opposition saying the things you want to say in a nice fancy cafe, drinking your Negroni, but the nature of your system is gone. This conversation is not an attempt to answer the question. We are not going to know what we are living through till long after it's over. But it is an effort to check in on the moment.

You can still be there in the opposition saying the things you want to say in a nice fancy cafe, drinking your Negroni, but the nature of your system is gone. This conversation is not an attempt to answer the question. We are not going to know what we are living through till long after it's over. But it is an effort to check in on the moment.

Because what moment people think they are living through, even in the time they are living through it, matters for the decisions they make and for what ultimately happens. As always, my email is reclineshow at nytimes.com. Zach Beecham, Andrew Morantz, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Thanks.

Because what moment people think they are living through, even in the time they are living through it, matters for the decisions they make and for what ultimately happens. As always, my email is reclineshow at nytimes.com. Zach Beecham, Andrew Morantz, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Thanks.

So Zach, you wrote this piece arguing that, at least from a certain perspective, Trump is losing. That he is not on track to achieve at least one version of his goals. Lay your case for me.

So Zach, you wrote this piece arguing that, at least from a certain perspective, Trump is losing. That he is not on track to achieve at least one version of his goals. Lay your case for me.

So let me ask one other question about what you said at the beginning, because another interpretation is that you we are being unfair to Donald Trump. Right. And he doesn't want authoritarianism, that he wants the literal things he's going after. He wants his concessions from universities because he or the people who work for him or advise him think they became anti-Semitic and woke. Right.

So let me ask one other question about what you said at the beginning, because another interpretation is that you we are being unfair to Donald Trump. Right. And he doesn't want authoritarianism, that he wants the literal things he's going after. He wants his concessions from universities because he or the people who work for him or advise him think they became anti-Semitic and woke. Right.

He wanted to, you know, push the press on certain things, but he actually does not want to destroy the free press. He's always said he will abide by court orders. And as you say, largely, though not, I think, entirely, is that one reason it's not going the way you fear is that the model in your head, Viktor Orban in Hungary, Modi in India, is actually not the right model.

He wanted to, you know, push the press on certain things, but he actually does not want to destroy the free press. He's always said he will abide by court orders. And as you say, largely, though not, I think, entirely, is that one reason it's not going the way you fear is that the model in your head, Viktor Orban in Hungary, Modi in India, is actually not the right model.

It is a hysterical resistance lib, fear casting onto Donald Trump.

It is a hysterical resistance lib, fear casting onto Donald Trump.

And it's unfair to Donald Trump.

And it's unfair to Donald Trump.