Ezra Klein

Well, yeah, and, you know, some of the... But I'm asking, do you think, as a felt sense, when you try to feel the zeitgeist of the moment, does it feel to you like the opposition is breaking or it's cohering?

Well, yeah, and, you know, some of the... But I'm asking, do you think, as a felt sense, when you try to feel the zeitgeist of the moment, does it feel to you like the opposition is breaking or it's cohering?

Just so we have it on the table, when we talk about competitive authoritarianism, how do you define that?

Just so we have it on the table, when we talk about competitive authoritarianism, how do you define that?

I want to pick up on the way anti-Semitism popped up here for a minute, Zach. You've covered a lot of the ways anti-Semitism works in illiberal movements. And the way it is working in this one is very strange. It's so weird. But it's also—

I want to pick up on the way anti-Semitism popped up here for a minute, Zach. You've covered a lot of the ways anti-Semitism works in illiberal movements. And the way it is working in this one is very strange. It's so weird. But it's also—

On the other hand, there is this, you know, throw open the doors of X to neo-Nazis and a movement that includes many anti-Semitic or anti-Semitic adjacent people. I mean, Donald Trump at one point had dinner with Nick Fuentes. You track this pretty closely. How do you understand both the usage of anti-Semitism as a rationale and rise of anti-Semitic figures in that movement at the same time?

On the other hand, there is this, you know, throw open the doors of X to neo-Nazis and a movement that includes many anti-Semitic or anti-Semitic adjacent people. I mean, Donald Trump at one point had dinner with Nick Fuentes. You track this pretty closely. How do you understand both the usage of anti-Semitism as a rationale and rise of anti-Semitic figures in that movement at the same time?

And Elon Musk at a different point when somebody was just offering extremely vile anti-Semitic conspiracy theories on...

And Elon Musk at a different point when somebody was just offering extremely vile anti-Semitic conspiracy theories on...

You can be a friend of Israel and be anti-Semitic. Yes.

You can be a friend of Israel and be anti-Semitic. Yes.

Your first book was about the rise of the online, what now is a MAGA, right? And you have these great scenes of being on these neo-Nazi podcasts. And there's a strangeness in the degree to which that is broken through, which I'd be curious to hear how you've absorbed. So you have much more mainstream figures now, like Joe Rogan having these World War II revisionist historians on.

Your first book was about the rise of the online, what now is a MAGA, right? And you have these great scenes of being on these neo-Nazi podcasts. And there's a strangeness in the degree to which that is broken through, which I'd be curious to hear how you've absorbed. So you have much more mainstream figures now, like Joe Rogan having these World War II revisionist historians on.

I've seen arguments, Matt Iglesias made this point that there is a generalized sense on the right that you need to question the foundational, what they see as myth or rationale of modern liberalism, which is that the Nazis are bad and the worst thing that can happen is Hitler. And in this effort to be completely uncensored, it's like, well, this is the last taboo and it needs to be broken, right?

I've seen arguments, Matt Iglesias made this point that there is a generalized sense on the right that you need to question the foundational, what they see as myth or rationale of modern liberalism, which is that the Nazis are bad and the worst thing that can happen is Hitler. And in this effort to be completely uncensored, it's like, well, this is the last taboo and it needs to be broken, right?

What do you think is going on there?

What do you think is going on there?

a conversation.

a conversation.