Ezra Klein

Well, I mean, the Trump administration is a lawsuit in front of trying to bring it up. It's important, basically saying these independent agencies where Trump can't easily fire the head of them, it's unconstitutional. So they could win that lawsuit and then they could talk about whatever they want. And Powell's term will end at some point. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that would be enough.

Well, I mean, the Trump administration is a lawsuit in front of trying to bring it up. It's important, basically saying these independent agencies where Trump can't easily fire the head of them, it's unconstitutional. So they could win that lawsuit and then they could talk about whatever they want. And Powell's term will end at some point. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that would be enough.

So we've sort of talked about this history in the past couple of decades where you had very dominant seeming

So we've sort of talked about this history in the past couple of decades where you had very dominant seeming

countries or countries that seemed on a very bright trajectory really running into turbulence and how they look now is very different from how they looked you know in europe's case two decades ago in japan's case four decades ago and it sounds a bit like you're saying there's a very good shot that america could enter one of those periods itself that our sense that our line only goes up

countries or countries that seemed on a very bright trajectory really running into turbulence and how they look now is very different from how they looked you know in europe's case two decades ago in japan's case four decades ago and it sounds a bit like you're saying there's a very good shot that america could enter one of those periods itself that our sense that our line only goes up

that's not preordained. We were good and we were lucky, and now we might not be good anymore and we might not be lucky anymore. And if you're not good and not lucky for 10 or 15 years, you can really lose a lot of altitude.

that's not preordained. We were good and we were lucky, and now we might not be good anymore and we might not be lucky anymore. And if you're not good and not lucky for 10 or 15 years, you can really lose a lot of altitude.

So if over the next 10-ish years, people are just they've lost trust in the dollar. What do they go to? When you think of what is the likeliest scenario 10 or 15 years from now in a bad scenario for the dollar, is it that China has built financial dominance?

So if over the next 10-ish years, people are just they've lost trust in the dollar. What do they go to? When you think of what is the likeliest scenario 10 or 15 years from now in a bad scenario for the dollar, is it that China has built financial dominance?

Is it that many different currencies are used in slightly higher proportions than now, the sort of multipolar scenario that people talk about? Are we all on Bitcoin?

Is it that many different currencies are used in slightly higher proportions than now, the sort of multipolar scenario that people talk about? Are we all on Bitcoin?

So it sounds a bit like one thing you're saying is that it has been a view of the Trump administration that everybody is free-riding the on the financial military services we provide to the world. And we might persuade them of that and persuade them that they should provide more financial military services to themselves or at least find another contractor or seller.

So it sounds a bit like one thing you're saying is that it has been a view of the Trump administration that everybody is free-riding the on the financial military services we provide to the world. And we might persuade them of that and persuade them that they should provide more financial military services to themselves or at least find another contractor or seller.

And we might miss that when it is diminished from where it's been.

And we might miss that when it is diminished from where it's been.

Ken Rogoff, thank you very much. Thank you. This episode of The Ozark Clown Show is produced by Roland Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld with additional mixing by Amin Zahoda. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon.

Ken Rogoff, thank you very much. Thank you. This episode of The Ozark Clown Show is produced by Roland Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld with additional mixing by Amin Zahoda. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon.

The show's production team also includes Marie Cassione, Annie Galvin, Elias Iskwith, Marina King, Jan Kobel, Kristen Lynn, and Jack McCordick. We have original music by Pat McCusker, audience strategy by Christina Samieluski, and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.

The show's production team also includes Marie Cassione, Annie Galvin, Elias Iskwith, Marina King, Jan Kobel, Kristen Lynn, and Jack McCordick. We have original music by Pat McCusker, audience strategy by Christina Samieluski, and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.