Ezra Klein

And so we've shrunken that space.

And it is a space of creativity.

And, you know, there's no reason we can't reclaim it, but we have a lot of trouble doing it because these algorithms are really sophisticated and they know how our minds work.

When are you most creative?

Walking, I would say.

That's where I walk a lot.

I walk in the Berkeley Hills.

And although even then, I have to say, half the time I fill my head, I have my AirPods on.

I'm listening to a novel or a podcast, listening to you when I could be.

Yeah.

No, it is important.

But anyway, and I have to remember to take out the AirPods and like listen to what's going on.

And we haven't talked about time in nature, but that's, I think, a very hygienic space for consciousness is being off of all media of all kinds.

Well, and there's a selection bias.

People know they can talk to me about their trips.

And so authoritative.

Yeah, and you're alluding to Christoph Koch, who is a very prominent consciousness researcher.

He was there at the beginning when he and Francis Crick began on this quest to understand consciousness in the late 80s, early 90s.

He's an exemplary scientist in that he's changed his mind in profound ways several times.

I find that doesn't usually happen among scientists, the saying that science changes one funeral at a time.