Ezra Klein

Thanks, Charlie.

Thanks, Charlie.

It is a wild thing to release a book into the world. Abundance, the book I co-wrote with Derek Thompson, has been out for a month and a half. It hit number one on the New York Times bestseller list this week, which thank you to all of you out there who have read it or listened to it. No way that would have happened without you.

It is a wild thing to release a book into the world. Abundance, the book I co-wrote with Derek Thompson, has been out for a month and a half. It hit number one on the New York Times bestseller list this week, which thank you to all of you out there who have read it or listened to it. No way that would have happened without you.

And it's doing things out there that I never really expected it to do, creating arguments that I didn't see coming, which is amazing. And so I wanted to have on today two people from the left, which is where much more of the pushback than I necessarily saw coming has come from.

And it's doing things out there that I never really expected it to do, creating arguments that I didn't see coming, which is amazing. And so I wanted to have on today two people from the left, which is where much more of the pushback than I necessarily saw coming has come from.

One from the anti-monopoly left, which I think sees abundance in ways I didn't initially foresee as a threat, as a challenge. And I also wanted to have somebody on from the part of the left that has become obsessed with building.

One from the anti-monopoly left, which I think sees abundance in ways I didn't initially foresee as a threat, as a challenge. And I also wanted to have somebody on from the part of the left that has become obsessed with building.

the Green New Deal left, the industrial policy left, the left that thinks we have lost the ability to accomplish the missions the left has set for America through the government. So my guests today are Shrikant Chakraborty, who is running for Congress in San Francisco against Nancy Pelosi. He's the president and co-founder of the New Consensus think tank, and he was AOC's first chief of staff.

the Green New Deal left, the industrial policy left, the left that thinks we have lost the ability to accomplish the missions the left has set for America through the government. So my guests today are Shrikant Chakraborty, who is running for Congress in San Francisco against Nancy Pelosi. He's the president and co-founder of the New Consensus think tank, and he was AOC's first chief of staff.

He helped recruit her for Congress and run her campaign. And Zephyr Teachout, who is a law professor at Fordham University, a key figure in anti-monopoly thinking. She has mounted runs for governor, for a state attorney general, for Congress, has authored a number of books.

He helped recruit her for Congress and run her campaign. And Zephyr Teachout, who is a law professor at Fordham University, a key figure in anti-monopoly thinking. She has mounted runs for governor, for a state attorney general, for Congress, has authored a number of books.

I found this conversation both great about abundance, but also about some of the broader goals, questions, animating impulses and theories of the left as it tries to define itself for this next era. Shotka Chakrabarty, Zephyr Teachout, welcome to the show.

I found this conversation both great about abundance, but also about some of the broader goals, questions, animating impulses and theories of the left as it tries to define itself for this next era. Shotka Chakrabarty, Zephyr Teachout, welcome to the show.

Yeah, thanks for having us. So my simplest summary of abundance is it's an effort to focus people on the question of what do we need more of and what is stopping us from getting it. So I'd like to hear from both of you about what you think of the book's arguments, where you agree and where you disagree. And Zephyr, why don't we start with you?

Yeah, thanks for having us. So my simplest summary of abundance is it's an effort to focus people on the question of what do we need more of and what is stopping us from getting it. So I'd like to hear from both of you about what you think of the book's arguments, where you agree and where you disagree. And Zephyr, why don't we start with you?

Oh, this piece is super hard.

Oh, this piece is super hard.

I think one of the places where I differ, maybe with your school, is I tend to work backwards from a policy outcome I want to what I think are the obstacles that are getting away. Those obstacles are almost always in some way related to some kind of power wielded by someone, some group, but it can change pretty dramatically in different places. So I want to ground this.

I think one of the places where I differ, maybe with your school, is I tend to work backwards from a policy outcome I want to what I think are the obstacles that are getting away. Those obstacles are almost always in some way related to some kind of power wielded by someone, some group, but it can change pretty dramatically in different places. So I want to ground this.