Ezra Klein

People in the Trump administration began saying kind of similar things, that we should be making so much more at home, that we're addicted to cheap stuff from abroad, that we're on a sugar-high economy, that we need to detox.

People in the Trump administration began saying kind of similar things, that we should be making so much more at home, that we're addicted to cheap stuff from abroad, that we're on a sugar-high economy, that we need to detox.

The market and the economy have just become hooked. We've become addicted to this government spending, and there's going to be a detox period.

The market and the economy have just become hooked. We've become addicted to this government spending, and there's going to be a detox period.

For a lot of Democrats, this is a pretty easy moment in economic policy for them. The tariffs are causing all this upheaval. Donald Trump is less popular than he was when he was elected by a lot. Simply opposing him is enough. But if you're someone like Lucincap Perez and your marginal voter is a Trump voter... Well, how does this look to you? How has it changed your politics?

For a lot of Democrats, this is a pretty easy moment in economic policy for them. The tariffs are causing all this upheaval. Donald Trump is less popular than he was when he was elected by a lot. Simply opposing him is enough. But if you're someone like Lucincap Perez and your marginal voter is a Trump voter... Well, how does this look to you? How has it changed your politics?

I was curious to see how she was absorbing it. Things have gone a little bit weirder in her district. There have been some very raucous town halls. So how is she thinking about what Donald Trump represents and the broader economic arguments she's been making as the politics of this begin to come into direct conflict with reality? As always, my email is reclineshow at nytimes.com.

I was curious to see how she was absorbing it. Things have gone a little bit weirder in her district. There have been some very raucous town halls. So how is she thinking about what Donald Trump represents and the broader economic arguments she's been making as the politics of this begin to come into direct conflict with reality? As always, my email is reclineshow at nytimes.com.

Congresswoman Marie Glusenkamp-Perez, welcome to the show.

Congresswoman Marie Glusenkamp-Perez, welcome to the show.

So I wanted to start with a clip of President Donald Trump from Wednesday talking about China and his tariffs.

So I wanted to start with a clip of President Donald Trump from Wednesday talking about China and his tariffs.

It's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about the tariffs, because in a way, members of the Trump administration have moved to making a critique that I think of as something that you've argued at times and that many people argue, which is that over decades, we became somewhat addicted to cheap stuff from China, that we lost values that we should have had in terms of what we want in the economy.

It's one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about the tariffs, because in a way, members of the Trump administration have moved to making a critique that I think of as something that you've argued at times and that many people argue, which is that over decades, we became somewhat addicted to cheap stuff from China, that we lost values that we should have had in terms of what we want in the economy.

in terms of what we value in the people who participate in the economy. And on the other hand, it's yoked to this sometimes almost random seeming set of economic policies. And so I've just been curious how you're processing this. Like, do these feel like people sort of allied in thinking about where we've gone wrong?

in terms of what we value in the people who participate in the economy. And on the other hand, it's yoked to this sometimes almost random seeming set of economic policies. And so I've just been curious how you're processing this. Like, do these feel like people sort of allied in thinking about where we've gone wrong?

Do they feel like people who are like hijacked arguments you make for something completely different? Like when you think about that economic philosophy that you've been trying to push in Washington, how have you processed both the sort of overlaps and the contradictions?

Do they feel like people who are like hijacked arguments you make for something completely different? Like when you think about that economic philosophy that you've been trying to push in Washington, how have you processed both the sort of overlaps and the contradictions?

Well, maybe we want contradictory things. I think on the economy specifically, I think we want plentiful cheap goods and And I think we want the self-determination, the resilience, an economy that values and rewards production in exactly the way you say. And I always think of one of the real problems for politics as being the collision of those two things.

Well, maybe we want contradictory things. I think on the economy specifically, I think we want plentiful cheap goods and And I think we want the self-determination, the resilience, an economy that values and rewards production in exactly the way you say. And I always think of one of the real problems for politics as being the collision of those two things.