Ezra Klein

Its coalition stretching from Reid Hoffman and the General Counsel of Microsoft on the one side to all kinds of like environmental justice groups on the other side. And I'm not saying literally no one ever got offended. But as I sort of like watched the procession from like the Obama era to the sort of Hillary Clinton campaign to the Biden-Harris era,

Its coalition stretching from Reid Hoffman and the General Counsel of Microsoft on the one side to all kinds of like environmental justice groups on the other side. And I'm not saying literally no one ever got offended. But as I sort of like watched the procession from like the Obama era to the sort of Hillary Clinton campaign to the Biden-Harris era,

and saw this in Congress too, it felt like as a matter of cultural, the governance culture, it wanted to run everything by everybody. And not literally anybody getting upset was an emergency, but the leadership became less and less tolerant. of anybody being upset. Everybody had to get a little bit. You were in Congress.

and saw this in Congress too, it felt like as a matter of cultural, the governance culture, it wanted to run everything by everybody. And not literally anybody getting upset was an emergency, but the leadership became less and less tolerant. of anybody being upset. Everybody had to get a little bit. You were in Congress.

You ran AOC's first campaign, so you were part of the Let's Piss People Off caucus. I'm curious, one, if what I just said feels true to you, and two... what your sort of account of it is, like what you saw from it and what you think is behind that culture, which seems much more dominant now on the left than on the, you know, like break every single egg of the global economy, right?

You ran AOC's first campaign, so you were part of the Let's Piss People Off caucus. I'm curious, one, if what I just said feels true to you, and two... what your sort of account of it is, like what you saw from it and what you think is behind that culture, which seems much more dominant now on the left than on the, you know, like break every single egg of the global economy, right?

What did they tell you in that training? How do you get ideas from corporate lobbyists?

What did they tell you in that training? How do you get ideas from corporate lobbyists?

Don't they come to you? I would have assumed they come to you with ideas.

Don't they come to you? I would have assumed they come to you with ideas.

Was their disagreement substantive or was it we were not consulted?

Was their disagreement substantive or was it we were not consulted?

There's a part of the book that is in there, but I think has gotten less attention. But we have over time, in my view, denuded the state of expertise. Members of Congress have, I think it's shocking how small the staff of a House member who represents like a highly populous district and maybe runs an important committee really is. And I'm not saying that's the only reason.

There's a part of the book that is in there, but I think has gotten less attention. But we have over time, in my view, denuded the state of expertise. Members of Congress have, I think it's shocking how small the staff of a House member who represents like a highly populous district and maybe runs an important committee really is. And I'm not saying that's the only reason.

They outsource a huge amount of their thinking and their work to corporate interests, to nonprofits. But there is this whole theory in political science called legislative subsidy, right? which is that the real power of lobbying, or one of its real sources of power, is that it is the provider of expertise.

They outsource a huge amount of their thinking and their work to corporate interests, to nonprofits. But there is this whole theory in political science called legislative subsidy, right? which is that the real power of lobbying, or one of its real sources of power, is that it is the provider of expertise.

And not only is it the provider of expertise, it is a provider of expertise from your former colleagues who you liked. They leave a congressional office because now they've got three kids, and maybe one of the kids is in private school, or all of them are, or whatever it might be. We've held down congressional salaries. We've held down congressional staff sizes.

And not only is it the provider of expertise, it is a provider of expertise from your former colleagues who you liked. They leave a congressional office because now they've got three kids, and maybe one of the kids is in private school, or all of them are, or whatever it might be. We've held down congressional salaries. We've held down congressional staff sizes.

That's all high-polling populist policy. And then people go into various forms of the private sector or the lobbying sector and sell back what they know. to their former colleagues. And in my version of abundance, where state capacity is very big, we need to fund the government itself a lot more. Like this is where I'm not a Doge person at all.

That's all high-polling populist policy. And then people go into various forms of the private sector or the lobbying sector and sell back what they know. to their former colleagues. And in my version of abundance, where state capacity is very big, we need to fund the government itself a lot more. Like this is where I'm not a Doge person at all.