Ezra Klein

I mean, I'm not a Doge person on a lot of levels, but my view is they want to destroy state capacity. Their view is that everybody would be more effective and productive in the private sector.

I mean, I'm not a Doge person on a lot of levels, but my view is they want to destroy state capacity. Their view is that everybody would be more effective and productive in the private sector.

Whereas I would like people working for Congress to be both more numerous and make a lot more money because we should have much of the very best expertise in the world helping Congress figure out its decarbonization policies and helping – in California, we should have the best rail engineers in the world helping on a major high-speed rail buildout.

Whereas I would like people working for Congress to be both more numerous and make a lot more money because we should have much of the very best expertise in the world helping Congress figure out its decarbonization policies and helping – in California, we should have the best rail engineers in the world helping on a major high-speed rail buildout.

How do you think about that outsourcing of all these functions and the absence of in-house capacity?

How do you think about that outsourcing of all these functions and the absence of in-house capacity?

Everything's been going great with air travel ever since.

Everything's been going great with air travel ever since.

I feel like the left has developed a very complicated relationship with expertise from the business world. So on the one hand, some of the people who I think are the heroes of this era and this movement, like Gary Gensler, say, who was a high-up banker before he became a regulator, obviously come from the worlds that they now regulate or that they oversee.

I feel like the left has developed a very complicated relationship with expertise from the business world. So on the one hand, some of the people who I think are the heroes of this era and this movement, like Gary Gensler, say, who was a high-up banker before he became a regulator, obviously come from the worlds that they now regulate or that they oversee.

And of course, those worlds have people with incredible expertise. I mean, there's a granularity to how every industry works that is very, very hard to attain from the outside. And on the other hand, I will often see nominations attacked or tried to be scaled because the person worked in the corporate world.

And of course, those worlds have people with incredible expertise. I mean, there's a granularity to how every industry works that is very, very hard to attain from the outside. And on the other hand, I will often see nominations attacked or tried to be scaled because the person worked in the corporate world.

I talk to people who leave Democratic administrations now, and they become very, very nervous about where they work because they fear that if they work in X place, they can't come back in in a future administration. And I feel like there has not emerged a clear criteria for this is... the kind of person we're willing to hire. This is the kind of person we're not.

I talk to people who leave Democratic administrations now, and they become very, very nervous about where they work because they fear that if they work in X place, they can't come back in in a future administration. And I feel like there has not emerged a clear criteria for this is... the kind of person we're willing to hire. This is the kind of person we're not.

This is when corporate experience is a good thing. This is when it's not. And so it sort of like pushed a lot of people into the nonprofit world. And there's nothing wrong with the nonprofit world. Many of my dearest friends work in the nonprofit world.

This is when corporate experience is a good thing. This is when it's not. And so it sort of like pushed a lot of people into the nonprofit world. And there's nothing wrong with the nonprofit world. Many of my dearest friends work in the nonprofit world.

But I'd be curious to hear you talk about this, Zephyr, because there are all these projects like the Revolving Door Project that basically sort of say, look, this person worked at this place, at this place. They've been involved in this thing. And we think that makes them suspicious. Yeah. And so on the one hand, that might be true, right? I do think you can have a lot of interest capture.

But I'd be curious to hear you talk about this, Zephyr, because there are all these projects like the Revolving Door Project that basically sort of say, look, this person worked at this place, at this place. They've been involved in this thing. And we think that makes them suspicious. Yeah. And so on the one hand, that might be true, right? I do think you can have a lot of interest capture.

And on the other hand, we know that a lot of the people who have been leaders in these areas, I mean, you could talk about Joseph Kennedy, right? Sort of being the traitor to his class under FDR on financial regulation have come from these places and you sort of need to have that level of knowledge about the thing you're regulating to effectively bring it under any kind of wise control.

And on the other hand, we know that a lot of the people who have been leaders in these areas, I mean, you could talk about Joseph Kennedy, right? Sort of being the traitor to his class under FDR on financial regulation have come from these places and you sort of need to have that level of knowledge about the thing you're regulating to effectively bring it under any kind of wise control.