Ezra Klein

I guess what I'm asking you on this, though, because I don't buy it. I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but the tariffs are going to matter to people. This is not some elite Washington fixation. I mean, your community is going to feel them like, you know, this much better.

I guess what I'm asking you on this, though, because I don't buy it. I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but the tariffs are going to matter to people. This is not some elite Washington fixation. I mean, your community is going to feel them like, you know, this much better.

But you have to treat policy that he is proposing like it will.

But you have to treat policy that he is proposing like it will.

I mean, it might not stay if it is opposed in a certain way, but I think I'm asking, like, he is making an argument for these things that sounds, it's almost similar, like I take the stylized policy here as we should dramatically raise the price of every single good that comes into this country and really dramatically raise the price of goods from China.

I mean, it might not stay if it is opposed in a certain way, but I think I'm asking, like, he is making an argument for these things that sounds, it's almost similar, like I take the stylized policy here as we should dramatically raise the price of every single good that comes into this country and really dramatically raise the price of goods from China.

So we wean ourselves off a lot of cheap crap and we make it here. And if that means things cost more, And if that means you can't have things, good. Like it's time for you to like pick up, start making things here again, and like get over this neoliberal delusion that we can have, you know, everything shipped in from another continent at half price.

So we wean ourselves off a lot of cheap crap and we make it here. And if that means things cost more, And if that means you can't have things, good. Like it's time for you to like pick up, start making things here again, and like get over this neoliberal delusion that we can have, you know, everything shipped in from another continent at half price.

I mean, the tariffs will go up and they'll go down, but like, is that right? Is he right about, is he going about it wrong? Is he right on half of it? I mean, this is a big policy, right? This is not weirdo Washington stuff. Like we're all going to feel this. Like it's going to affect every store in the country.

I mean, the tariffs will go up and they'll go down, but like, is that right? Is he right about, is he going about it wrong? Is he right on half of it? I mean, this is a big policy, right? This is not weirdo Washington stuff. Like we're all going to feel this. Like it's going to affect every store in the country.

Tell me a bit more about what that looks like. I hear you on permitting reform. I mean, the argument the Biden administration used to make was we are trying to compete with China by building our capacity here. We'll put tariffs on a limited number of things from China, electric vehicles, batteries, solar panels, things like that.

Tell me a bit more about what that looks like. I hear you on permitting reform. I mean, the argument the Biden administration used to make was we are trying to compete with China by building our capacity here. We'll put tariffs on a limited number of things from China, electric vehicles, batteries, solar panels, things like that.

And we will invest a bunch in domestic manufacturing capacity and infrastructure. And that's going to get us where we need to go. Then you have Trump who says, no, what we need to do is actually just make the things unaffordable. And that's what's going to get us where we need to go. What would you keep from the two approaches or would you keep nothing from them?

And we will invest a bunch in domestic manufacturing capacity and infrastructure. And that's going to get us where we need to go. Then you have Trump who says, no, what we need to do is actually just make the things unaffordable. And that's what's going to get us where we need to go. What would you keep from the two approaches or would you keep nothing from them?

When you say it should be a positive agenda, what should that agenda look like?

When you say it should be a positive agenda, what should that agenda look like?

Let me ask you about the electric vehicle tax credits for a second, because let me try to give the best version of that argument as I understand it. People will buy many, many, many new cars over the next 10, 20, 30 years. Like, that's just baseline. We want there to be a big electric vehicle transition. We also want a lot of those electric vehicles to be made here.

Let me ask you about the electric vehicle tax credits for a second, because let me try to give the best version of that argument as I understand it. People will buy many, many, many new cars over the next 10, 20, 30 years. Like, that's just baseline. We want there to be a big electric vehicle transition. We also want a lot of those electric vehicles to be made here.

So when the Biden administration does this, they put pretty heavy tariffs, I mean, 100%, as I remember it, on Chinese electric vehicles, which are a major competitor, and they do a lot of investment in domestic supply chain on that. This sort of sounds to me in broad strokes like a policy you would like. It's not the only policy.

So when the Biden administration does this, they put pretty heavy tariffs, I mean, 100%, as I remember it, on Chinese electric vehicles, which are a major competitor, and they do a lot of investment in domestic supply chain on that. This sort of sounds to me in broad strokes like a policy you would like. It's not the only policy.