Ezra Klein

And sort of as Zephyr was saying, we lost a certain set of tools in the toolkit. But more than that, we lost a certain set of lenses for analyzing problem society. When you focus there on things like a reconstruction finance corporation for a modern era or more public infrastructure banks, what analytically did we stop seeing? that you're trying to restore?

And sort of as Zephyr was saying, we lost a certain set of tools in the toolkit. But more than that, we lost a certain set of lenses for analyzing problem society. When you focus there on things like a reconstruction finance corporation for a modern era or more public infrastructure banks, what analytically did we stop seeing? that you're trying to restore?

And then what would things like this actually do that is not being done?

And then what would things like this actually do that is not being done?

How much of the level of leadership radiology to you is the loss of that? People talk about neoliberalism, and I think neoliberalism is a very...

How much of the level of leadership radiology to you is the loss of that? People talk about neoliberalism, and I think neoliberalism is a very...

complex and weird and abused term but one thing i believe we write this in the book is that democrats stopped intervening on the production side of the economy they more or less began to trust the market you know maybe you had to put some rules on the market maybe you had to put some curbs on the market but the idea that you were going to intervene to do things the market wasn't going to do or create markets for things that needed to happen that weren't happening is

complex and weird and abused term but one thing i believe we write this in the book is that democrats stopped intervening on the production side of the economy they more or less began to trust the market you know maybe you had to put some rules on the market maybe you had to put some curbs on the market but the idea that you were going to intervene to do things the market wasn't going to do or create markets for things that needed to happen that weren't happening is

It fell out of favor, not in the sense that it would be desirable, but in the sense that it was even possible. The view is that the government will fail if it tries to do this. Industrial policy fails when you try it. That picking winners and losers is always the line fails when you do it. Then obviously over there came China. And I think that changed the intellectual side of this.

It fell out of favor, not in the sense that it would be desirable, but in the sense that it was even possible. The view is that the government will fail if it tries to do this. Industrial policy fails when you try it. That picking winners and losers is always the line fails when you do it. Then obviously over there came China. And I think that changed the intellectual side of this.

But how do you see what happened there? Both ideologically and when you look at where the leadership of the party is now, do you see it changing?

But how do you see what happened there? Both ideologically and when you look at where the leadership of the party is now, do you see it changing?

Well, they tried some, right? High-speed rail, smart grid, electronic health records. I always think about those as being the big signature moonshots of the Recovery Act, and none of them actually happened. And they were so tiny.

Well, they tried some, right? High-speed rail, smart grid, electronic health records. I always think about those as being the big signature moonshots of the Recovery Act, and none of them actually happened. And they were so tiny.

Those are the big ones. And everybody knows Solyndra. I mean, I was thinking about this. I did this show with Tom Friedman recently about China. And one of the ways I think Republicans specifically, but then in response, Democrats also have really hindered government by becoming too afraid of failure.

Those are the big ones. And everybody knows Solyndra. I mean, I was thinking about this. I did this show with Tom Friedman recently about China. And one of the ways I think Republicans specifically, but then in response, Democrats also have really hindered government by becoming too afraid of failure.

And the feeling that if you loan money to something that goes belly up, if you fund a grant for science, it can sound funny if somebody says it at a speech. And one way to just destroy not just state capacity, but state ambition is to make the state so cautious.

And the feeling that if you loan money to something that goes belly up, if you fund a grant for science, it can sound funny if somebody says it at a speech. And one way to just destroy not just state capacity, but state ambition is to make the state so cautious.

I mean, some of the process and procedure we talk about, it's endless auditing and oversight and procedure to show you're doing nothing wrong, which in the end makes you can't do all that much right.

I mean, some of the process and procedure we talk about, it's endless auditing and oversight and procedure to show you're doing nothing wrong, which in the end makes you can't do all that much right.