Ezra Klein

Try to live in that world.

Try to live in that world.

Anti-monopoly is much more about power than antitrust. Yeah, right. And that I understand. I mean, you said this very clear at the beginning, but I understand your goal as being a fundamental rebalancing of social power.

Anti-monopoly is much more about power than antitrust. Yeah, right. And that I understand. I mean, you said this very clear at the beginning, but I understand your goal as being a fundamental rebalancing of social power.

It's a fundamental rebalancing of social power. Because if Steve Tellis were here, a political scientist, he would say that people in your movement are very focused on one kind of power, but not many, many other kinds of power. That you can break corporate power and you have all kinds of other minoritarian institutions operating at every single level of government.

It's a fundamental rebalancing of social power. Because if Steve Tellis were here, a political scientist, he would say that people in your movement are very focused on one kind of power, but not many, many other kinds of power. That you can break corporate power and you have all kinds of other minoritarian institutions operating at every single level of government.

law paper by David Schleicher recently about the law of the gentry and the triumph of the law of the gentry and property law, like local governments exercise power, unions exercise power. There's a million kinds of power exercised at every level of society.

law paper by David Schleicher recently about the law of the gentry and the triumph of the law of the gentry and property law, like local governments exercise power, unions exercise power. There's a million kinds of power exercised at every level of society.

And I think that the argument some other people make, even if they agree on some of the anti-monopoly sides, would say that doesn't get you to democracy. You can have low levels of corporate concentration, at least acceptable levels of corporate concentration, and have unwise power used in all kinds of other ways.

And I think that the argument some other people make, even if they agree on some of the anti-monopoly sides, would say that doesn't get you to democracy. You can have low levels of corporate concentration, at least acceptable levels of corporate concentration, and have unwise power used in all kinds of other ways.

Indeed, in the post-FDR period, I don't think anybody would say we were a perfect democracy. Power was exercised in horrific ways in the American South, right? You just said it doesn't solve racism. So that's the only place where I wouldn't say anti-monopoly is synonymous with democracy.

Indeed, in the post-FDR period, I don't think anybody would say we were a perfect democracy. Power was exercised in horrific ways in the American South, right? You just said it doesn't solve racism. So that's the only place where I wouldn't say anti-monopoly is synonymous with democracy.

Let me ask you about something you brought up a while ago that I had sort of turned to be a cost of construction question. But one thing we used to do more of that other countries do much more than we do is public financing. And that's been a big part of the work being done by your group at New Consensus. Talk a little bit about what public financing can do.

Let me ask you about something you brought up a while ago that I had sort of turned to be a cost of construction question. But one thing we used to do more of that other countries do much more than we do is public financing. And that's been a big part of the work being done by your group at New Consensus. Talk a little bit about what public financing can do.

And sort of as Zephyr was saying, we lost a certain set of tools in the toolkit. But more than that, we lost a certain set of lenses for analyzing problem society. When you focus there on things like a reconstruction finance corporation for a modern era or more public infrastructure banks, what analytically did we stop seeing? that you're trying to restore?

And sort of as Zephyr was saying, we lost a certain set of tools in the toolkit. But more than that, we lost a certain set of lenses for analyzing problem society. When you focus there on things like a reconstruction finance corporation for a modern era or more public infrastructure banks, what analytically did we stop seeing? that you're trying to restore?

And then what would things like this actually do that is not being done?

And then what would things like this actually do that is not being done?

How much of the level of leadership radiology to you is the loss of that? People talk about neoliberalism, and I think neoliberalism is a very...

How much of the level of leadership radiology to you is the loss of that? People talk about neoliberalism, and I think neoliberalism is a very...