Ezra Klein

complex and weird and abused term but one thing i believe we write this in the book is that democrats stopped intervening on the production side of the economy they more or less began to trust the market you know maybe you had to put some rules on the market maybe you had to put some curbs on the market but the idea that you were going to intervene to do things the market wasn't going to do or create markets for things that needed to happen that weren't happening is

complex and weird and abused term but one thing i believe we write this in the book is that democrats stopped intervening on the production side of the economy they more or less began to trust the market you know maybe you had to put some rules on the market maybe you had to put some curbs on the market but the idea that you were going to intervene to do things the market wasn't going to do or create markets for things that needed to happen that weren't happening is

It fell out of favor, not in the sense that it would be desirable, but in the sense that it was even possible. The view is that the government will fail if it tries to do this. Industrial policy fails when you try it. That picking winners and losers is always the line fails when you do it. Then obviously over there came China. And I think that changed the intellectual side of this.

It fell out of favor, not in the sense that it would be desirable, but in the sense that it was even possible. The view is that the government will fail if it tries to do this. Industrial policy fails when you try it. That picking winners and losers is always the line fails when you do it. Then obviously over there came China. And I think that changed the intellectual side of this.

But how do you see what happened there? Both ideologically and when you look at where the leadership of the party is now, do you see it changing?

But how do you see what happened there? Both ideologically and when you look at where the leadership of the party is now, do you see it changing?

Well, they tried some, right? High-speed rail, smart grid, electronic health records. I always think about those as being the big signature moonshots of the Recovery Act, and none of them actually happened. And they were so tiny.

Well, they tried some, right? High-speed rail, smart grid, electronic health records. I always think about those as being the big signature moonshots of the Recovery Act, and none of them actually happened. And they were so tiny.

Those are the big ones. And everybody knows Solyndra. I mean, I was thinking about this. I did this show with Tom Friedman recently about China. And one of the ways I think Republicans specifically, but then in response, Democrats also have really hindered government by becoming too afraid of failure.

Those are the big ones. And everybody knows Solyndra. I mean, I was thinking about this. I did this show with Tom Friedman recently about China. And one of the ways I think Republicans specifically, but then in response, Democrats also have really hindered government by becoming too afraid of failure.

And the feeling that if you loan money to something that goes belly up, if you fund a grant for science, it can sound funny if somebody says it at a speech. And one way to just destroy not just state capacity, but state ambition is to make the state so cautious.

And the feeling that if you loan money to something that goes belly up, if you fund a grant for science, it can sound funny if somebody says it at a speech. And one way to just destroy not just state capacity, but state ambition is to make the state so cautious.

I mean, some of the process and procedure we talk about, it's endless auditing and oversight and procedure to show you're doing nothing wrong, which in the end makes you can't do all that much right.

I mean, some of the process and procedure we talk about, it's endless auditing and oversight and procedure to show you're doing nothing wrong, which in the end makes you can't do all that much right.

Do you want to say what those are?

Do you want to say what those are?

I want to say it's William Proxmire, if I'm not wrong. But also, you just saw Donald Trump doing it when he stood up and he says at the joint session of Congress speech, you know, all this money to make mice transgender, which we also was not what was being done. You can't if you don't know how to make mice transgender. But but it's a common thing in politics.

I want to say it's William Proxmire, if I'm not wrong. But also, you just saw Donald Trump doing it when he stood up and he says at the joint session of Congress speech, you know, all this money to make mice transgender, which we also was not what was being done. You can't if you don't know how to make mice transgender. But but it's a common thing in politics.

And you even hear it from Democrats sometimes this sort of picking out. Of the thing that sounds embarrassing. And then what you do is you terrify agencies because they don't want to be the ones blamed for an embarrassing sounding thing.

And you even hear it from Democrats sometimes this sort of picking out. Of the thing that sounds embarrassing. And then what you do is you terrify agencies because they don't want to be the ones blamed for an embarrassing sounding thing.