Gerald Butts

I think the only point I would add, I had a similar position to the one that Nigel, I think you're referring to Nigel Wright mostly, James, that I would go to caucus meetings both at Queen's Park and at

on Parliament Hill.

And I would mostly, and I do this for all speeches, actually.

I think I'd give this advice to any staffer.

Don't watch your principal speak.

You know what he or she is going to say.

Watch the room, right?

And you can tell a lot.

There's a reason, one of the oldest cliches in the English language, Peter, is

read the room, right?

And that is one of the most important rooms in the life of any first minister.

Because I do, I think James is onto something really important at the end there, that for the prime minister or the premier and a lot of the cabinet ministers,

The caucus meeting is just one meeting that happens, a variety of really important meetings with really important people, sometimes self-styled, in any given week.

But for a lot of the people in that room, it is their most important meeting of the week.

And it is their one chance to look their senior colleagues in the eye who are all peers.

Let's remember, this is a caucus meeting.

And when you walk into that room, you are a member of caucus, right?

Obviously you carry a title if you're the prime minister or a minister, but it is supposed to be a meeting amongst equals where issues are aired and resolved or paths to resolution are identified more often has been my experience.

I think, and I try not to give backseat advice, but I do think the caucus, this current caucus, made a mistake in kicking staff out of this meeting.

the most most importantly for practical reasons like the prime minister is a very busy person and if you're expecting him to keep a list of all the things that you need done then leave this two-hour meeting go have another hour-long debrief with his staff remember everything correctly and then farm out all of the tasks that need to be associated with the issues that have been aired in that caucus it's just a very inelegant way of solving problems in my