Gordon Carrera

And Jafar is like, well, the records were rubbish and we've destroyed the stuff and we didn't record destroying it.

So what can we do about it?

And I mean, one small story I was told by an inspector, he said that an Iraqi scientist later revealed what had happened to some of the anthrax.

So this pretty nasty stuff.

When they destroyed it, they just poured it into the ground, but they'd done it near one of Saddam's palaces.

And so they then fear that if they have to own up to having poured it into the ground near one of Saddam's palaces at any point, if they own up about that, Saddam will be so angry, they'll kill him.

It's a pretty stupid thing, dumping it near one of your bosses' palaces.

So, you know, that's a small example where they're like, we can't prove and we don't even want to come clean about where we dump the anthrax because it's too dangerous.

That's right.

And so one of the ways Saddam is trying to say, I haven't got this stuff.

So he's done the declaration to the UN.

He's also got these back channels.

So there's a really interesting one, which MI6 have with the Iraqis.

So early 2003, the MI6 controller for the Middle East goes to the Middle East and meets a senior Iraqi intelligence official.

This is a kind of secret meeting.

I mean, it's a back channel rather than an agent meeting.

And they're going to meet a number of times as war approaches.

The CIA is aware of these contacts and it's kind of been briefed about them.

And the Iraqi intelligence officer tells the MI6 guy, we don't have any weapons.

Now, some people later write this up as like a lost opportunity to avoid war and more evidence that the kind of spies were lying because they'd been told there were no weapons and yet they still press on with war.