Greg Jenner

Exactly. And Frederick Douglass, we've done an episode on it. Listeners, if you want to check that out, it's a really good one. Douglass is a renowned orator. He's a brilliant speaker and incredibly articulate. You might assume that Douglass and Sojourner Truth get on really well, but There's sort of tension, Michelle.

Who's the headline act? Is it Frederick Douglass or is it Sojourner Truth?

Who's the headline act? Is it Frederick Douglass or is it Sojourner Truth?

I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because we can lift both of these up as heroes and as pioneers. But actually, there's a sort of fractious relationship there. So Jenna Truth does copy one of Douglas's better ideas, i.e. a book. He writes a sort of very, very famous book, sells quite a lot of copies, 4,500. And six months later, Jenna Truth sort of announces that she's going to do a book.

I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it? Because we can lift both of these up as heroes and as pioneers. But actually, there's a sort of fractious relationship there. So Jenna Truth does copy one of Douglas's better ideas, i.e. a book. He writes a sort of very, very famous book, sells quite a lot of copies, 4,500. And six months later, Jenna Truth sort of announces that she's going to do a book.

What's her book called, Michelle?

What's her book called, Michelle?

Yeah, put it on the front cover. You must buy this book. It's very important. Like, seriously, you guys, buy this book. So it's published in 1850. So it takes four or five years or so to actually get this book down. And it's an autobiography with two voices, which is a slightly unusual idea. But there is a PR strategy in that The Journal of Truth quite cleverly gets a celebrity endorsement.

Yeah, put it on the front cover. You must buy this book. It's very important. Like, seriously, you guys, buy this book. So it's published in 1850. So it takes four or five years or so to actually get this book down. And it's an autobiography with two voices, which is a slightly unusual idea. But there is a PR strategy in that The Journal of Truth quite cleverly gets a celebrity endorsement.

She gets the endorsement of Harriet Beecher Stowe. Do you know Harriet Beecher Stowe, Desiree? Uncle Tom's Cabin?

She gets the endorsement of Harriet Beecher Stowe. Do you know Harriet Beecher Stowe, Desiree? Uncle Tom's Cabin?

Yeah, okay. Huge, huge bestseller. Another abolitionist. By getting an endorsement, that sells copies. And later, Michelle Stowe publishes an article about meeting Sojourner Truth. It's an interesting document, but it's tricky.

Yeah, okay. Huge, huge bestseller. Another abolitionist. By getting an endorsement, that sells copies. And later, Michelle Stowe publishes an article about meeting Sojourner Truth. It's an interesting document, but it's tricky.

Yeah, you want that endorsement, you just have to sort of cringe your way through it, I guess. In 1852, just the year before that kind of big interview with Harriet Beecher Stowe, or that big moment with Harriet Beecher Stowe, in 1852, Sojourner and Frederick Douglass clashed again

Yeah, you want that endorsement, you just have to sort of cringe your way through it, I guess. In 1852, just the year before that kind of big interview with Harriet Beecher Stowe, or that big moment with Harriet Beecher Stowe, in 1852, Sojourner and Frederick Douglass clashed again

Because Douglass was starting to sort of suggest that taking up arms might be necessary for the emancipation of African-Americans and that perhaps God had abandoned them. And Sojourner manages to shut him up in public in front of an audience by saying, Frederick, is God dead? What a line.

Because Douglass was starting to sort of suggest that taking up arms might be necessary for the emancipation of African-Americans and that perhaps God had abandoned them. And Sojourner manages to shut him up in public in front of an audience by saying, Frederick, is God dead? What a line.

He's literally silenced by this line, Desiree. Can you imagine her with hecklers in a comedy club? So Jonah, truth, live and loud.

He's literally silenced by this line, Desiree. Can you imagine her with hecklers in a comedy club? So Jonah, truth, live and loud.

So in the 1850s, with the book out, Sojourner Truth went on a book tour. Her name means traveling, so she's living up to her name. She's traveling. And she's fighting for women's rights as well as an abolitionist, which is a really important distinction. And she meets Michelle William Lloyd Garrison. She meets a British MP, George Thompson.