Greg McKeown

So the military would go and collect people that they thought might have information of interest and he would follow a procedure, a protocol.

And the protocol was exactly as I'm about to describe it.

Well, I already know you're guilty.

And I've got all the information here in this vanilla envelope here.

I already know.

You're going to Guantanamo for the rest of your life.

The only way that you can get less than Guantanamo for the rest of your life is to cooperate with me.

And if he could have somebody successfully go from a state of non-cooperation to cooperation, that's called breaking them.

And he states the number that in this industry, if industry is the right word for it, but in this discipline globally, the rates are about 4% success rates.

So very low success rates using this approach.

And he does this for days.

He hates doing it.

He thinks the whole thing is stupid, as he did in his interrogation class.

But he doesn't either have the courage to do anything different or doesn't perhaps even know there's a different way.

He just doesn't think this is a very good way until one of the prisoners turns to him and says straight to him, just eyeball to eyeball.

He says, you don't get me and you don't want to get me.

And that pierces him because he knows that's true.

He knows that's built in, baked into the protocol he's using.

And it's, yeah, well, that's it.

You've named it.