Jad Abumrad (host) / main Radiolab host voice

The day after the... Transfer.

Transfer.

a phone call yeah we spoke to her for about two minutes and we uh told her we loved her and she said i love you mommy and i love you daddy and i don't know just a few minutes and but that was it that was the last time we were able to be in touch and that was 16 months ago and how long was veronica with them again before this happened

About two years.

Oh man, that's hard.

Yeah.

And you know, when I first heard about this case, that's basically the only way I thought of it, you know, is just, that's a crazy injustice.

That's basically all I saw in it.

That's Marsha Zug again.

And her article for Slate kind of caught me off guard because the title was Doing What's Best for the Tribe.

Two-year-old Veronica was ripped from the only home she's ever known.

The court made the right decision.

So I called up to ask her, like, what do you mean by that?

And this is where the story turned into the biggest rabbit hole I've ever fallen into.

What did she tell you?

I mean, Marcia basically said the only way you can begin to wrap your mind around what's right and what's wrong in this story is to go back to the 60s.

Bert, how are you doing?

Good, how are you, Tim?

Great to meet you.

And to this guy.