Jake Humphrey

I also think the other thing here is vulnerability.

We had a great conversation recently with Brene Brown about this, where she basically challenged elite sports teams and said, tell me one thing you've ever had to do that involved bravery where you weren't also vulnerable.

None of us can get to this point where a fear of failure or self-doubt

is no longer an issue unless we're able to be vulnerable.

Because I think that when it comes to leadership, especially like if we're talking about real leadership, we know now from our conversations that it's not how it used to be.

Leadership used to be, follow me.

I have all the answers.

I will tell you what to do.

And if you do everything I tell you, we'll all get to where I want us to go.

That's just not what leadership looks like anymore.

It isn't about having all the answers.

It isn't about demanding belief, is it?

It's about someone like Jurgen Klopp creating this environment of,

of honesty, maybe of challenge as well, where I think people begin to see more in themselves than they see in their leader.

Does that make sense?

You know, I think actually...

Someone who I thought wouldn't be vulnerable, but really was when you chatted to him was Steven Gerrard.

I kind of had this impression of Steven Gerrard, as a lot of people do, that he was kind of like this bulletproof leader for Liverpool.

But actually, when you spend time with him, like, I suppose it's because one of the interesting things about television, right, is that it kind of breaks down all the barriers.

You know, Steven Gerrard knew what he was doing on a football field.