Chapter 1: What do elite performers do when pressure hits?
Hi there, welcome along to another episode of High Performance with myself and my co-host Damien Hughes. Damien? Hey, Jake. How are you, mate? Very well, thanks very much.
I'm looking forward to this conversation, actually, because we're going to hear from Chrissie Wellington, the unmanned triathlete, Tom Aspinall, the UFC fighter who got rather nastily poked in the eye a few months ago, legendary all-black Dan Carter, James Milner, the record appearance holder in the Premier League, and Yaya Torre,
who joined us recently on High Performance and gave us some serious wisdom. And we're going to be speaking to them all about dealing with pressure, handling pressure. But before we go any further, if people are watching us on Apple Podcasts, they can see where you are.
If they're listening to us wherever they get their podcasts, they will not know that it looks to me like you are certainly not at home. In fact, you look like you're in a very salubrious hotel room.
Well, I am. I'm in Shakespeare country, Jake. I'm in the beautiful Stratford-upon-Avon. I've come to meet a couple of mates, go out for a few beers with them, and then I've curtailed my evening to come back and chat with you. Have you, honestly? Yeah, honestly, because... Mate, we could have... Professionalism. We could have recorded this at another time. No, not at all. No professionalism.
We've got a job to... As Roy Keane would say, do your job. So that's what we're doing. So go on, what's going on in your world?
Oh, mate. Well, I mean, honestly, it's like Costa del Norfolk at the moment. The sun is out, the sky is blue. It's like 25 degrees every single day. It's lovely. So I'm just... I'm trying to take it easy. I'm trying to just chill and catch my breath. The kids have just gone back to school. So we're loving that. Actually, no, the truth is, right, we're in exam time.
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Chapter 2: How does Chrissie Wellington handle racing under pressure?
And you know how I feel about exams. I don't believe they should exist. And you know how I feel about school. I believe it should be revolutionized. Whereas Harriet, my wife, is like hardcore into the revision. So we keep on having these same conversations where she's like, Why don't you care about the exams as much as I do?
So I have to then pretend that I'm caring about the exams and get the kids to do revision of nonsense subjects that I don't think they're ever going to make use of in their life. But it teaches them hard work, right? And there's a value in that.
Well, do you remember when we sat down with Ali Abdaal because he was like a tutor for a long time and at the time my son was going through GCSEs and I was asking him for any tips or advice and he had a really good way of reframing it. He said, revision isn't what you can put in your brain, it's what you can get out of it.
So he spoke about the Ebbinghaus curve of forgetting, where it was like, just test, test, test, and me test. And the more you can do that, the more you can get out of your brain rather than worry about what you can cram in.
It's actually a good point. And I am being pretty facetious. Like, I like the fact that the kids are in this point in their life. So Flo's now 13, just turned 13, Seb's 10. We're now able to have proper conversations with them about, like, you can sit in that exam in three weeks and,
and think why didn't i prep and walk out feeling disappointed and all of your mates will be going yeah i think it was easy and you're secretly thinking it was hard or you can learn now at a really young age the importance of preparation of positioning as shane parish would have called it on high performance when he joined us um and that if you do the work now then on the exam on the exam day you can just relax it can be actually a nice day at school having an exam right because you've done the work yeah exactly and and how are they responding to that
Just ignoring me.
children i know exactly um all right well let's crack on with the episode because um for people that don't know on a wednesday we love to delve into the archives of high performance we go through some of the most interesting conversations we've had but we like to tie it to a theme so normally on a monday or a tuesday the messages between myself and damien and will the producer start flying around and we talk about things that are going on in our own lives things that we've spotted things that we've seen that we want to talk about
And you had an idea this week, Damien, that maybe we should talk about pressure, which is so apt when kids are going through exam times. And I know, you know, you had double exams, didn't you, last summer with your kids? You know all about this. This is a very, very interesting conversation to have because the question isn't whether pressure is going to find us, right? Because it finds everyone.
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Chapter 3: What insights does Tom Aspinall share about admitting fear?
It's the challenge of having to deal with that that I loved. So I expected it and I embraced it, first of all. I found it in the final race that I did. And it taught me that I could achieve more than I ever thought possible. And it taught me that my perfect race was when I overcame imperfections perfectly.
And so that race was certainly not perfect in the way I was able to prepare or the way I prepared. And it was certainly not perfect in quotation marks in terms of it wasn't without pain and discomfort. But for me, it was my perfect race because it was the battle within myself that I had craved. It was a battle with my competitors that I'd wanted. And I crossed that finish line.
I felt really complete as an athlete.
There was that one line that when I scribbled my notes after the interview, there's that one line that Chrissie shared with us that I still go back to was like, I raised the imperfect race perfectly. You know, and I think that's something that when we talk about pressure, things are not going to go to plan. They're not going to go perfectly.
It's how you respond to that is responding perfectly to imperfections that I think is a really interesting concept.
Yeah, I'll tell you what I think is quite interesting when it comes to expectation, right? Is that two people can live the exact same experience, can't they? Same outcome, same result in the same moment, yet walk away with totally different emotions because one had way more expectation and one had less expectation. And I think the outcome obviously doesn't change, but the expectation does.
So I think most people try and control results. I think what we've seen in the conversations that we've had, and we're going to hear from more experts in a minute, is that high performers don't try and control results. They just manage expectations. And it's not, I don't want people to listen to this and think, what?
So high performers lower their standards and therefore they're always happy with the outcome. That's not what I'm saying. I think... what high performers do is they separate effort from entitlement. Does that make sense? They sort of go all in on preparation.
Exactly as I just said with the kids, they go all in on preparation, intensity, execution, but they don't attach their emotional state to that specific outcome.
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Chapter 4: What lesson did Dan Carter learn from the All Blacks' losses?
So this is how I operate in a hard situation. How am I going to be if everything works out?
Yeah, exactly. Like your brain is a pattern spotting machine. So if you've not built in that there's a pattern that things might go wrong, it panics. It gives you the risk of freezing in those key moments, whereas your ability just to inoculate yourself against it is something that any of us can do, whatever our pressure moment that we're facing.
Can I call up a clip now of a guy who... Damien, I'm really keen to get Tom Aspinall back on High Performance.
Did you not message him recently about that? Yeah, I messaged his dad, Andy, and he came back and said he was going in for another operation, but he's really keen to come back. I'd love that.
Oh, mate, have you not got Tom's number? No, no, just his dad. Or his address. You could write him a letter like you did Roy Keane and get no reply, which I love to mention on every possible episode.
I might send a carrier pigeon round.
Why not? Okay, so let's hear them from Tom Aspinall. If you don't know Tom's story, one of the most eloquent, thoughtful, remarkable fighters in UFC. He actually fought recently. He got a really bad injury.
I mean, I don't think this has been said publicly, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's been thoughts or questions about whether he can continue because the injury looked so severe and he's had operations since then. But we spoke to him about fear. And his advice to us was, well, don't deny the fear.
This is Tom Aspinall, UFC heavyweight champion, doing the complete opposite of fearing the fear.
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Chapter 5: How did James Milner's experience with Klopp shape his approach to pressure?
Bearing in mind I'd left the sort of most famous, biggest broadcaster on the planet. And I walked in a room of six people sitting around a table. And they said, welcome, this is everyone who works for BT Sport. And I was like, oh my goodness, okay. But again, I was kind of putting myself out there and I wasn't ignoring the fact that there was a huge risk.
And even when I started high performance, I genuinely questioned, and as you know, questioned it many times, will people give two hoots about the conversations that we want to have? So I think what that book taught me to do, feel the fear and do it anyway,
was that fear is not something to be eliminated right fear is actually something that if you sit there in the fear and still move forwards then i think you're on to a winner and i believe this about so many things in life you remember when we spoke to danny gray the mental health campaigner i sort of said to him people with mental health challenges are not the weakest people in the room they're the strongest people in the room
And I think if we've, you know, you and I, more than 400 episodes now of this show, I think probably the biggest insight, right, is that the people that we think are fearless, the people that we put on a pedestal, the people we see on the telly, we believe to be fearless, absolutely not true. Elite performers are carrying anxiety, carrying doubt, carrying pressure.
And confidence, I think, is frequently something that people project. It is not something... that they feel, you know, fear is not the signal to stop. It's the signal that something meaningful is happening. And I love that clip from Tom Aspinall because he absolutely understands that, doesn't he?
Yeah, it did. And like when you sort of share some of the stories from your own background, I'm interested, like, how do you articulate fear now? You know, when you're with Harriet or like your parents, do you talk about it as fear or do you use a different way of framing it?
Yeah, and I think I do. I mean, I'm very good at saying to Harriet, I feel a bit scared about this. you know, I think this could be an issue. I suppose what I don't try and do is remove fear, suppress fear or outgrow it. I mean, I think this idea of outgrowing fear is so wide of the mark, isn't it?
Like you literally don't outgrow it because as you grow, the fear becomes greater because the challenges become greater. So I think actually normalising fear is something that I've learned to do. And that actually changes the game because I think once fear... is normal. Like it stops being a red flag. It stops being evidence that you're not ready. It becomes part of your process. And I think, um,
the people you admire didn't get there without fear. They got there alongside fear, I think is the thing that I've learned. And do you remember Johanna Konta when she spoke about your resistance being a 10? And if your resistance, this is the former number one female British tennis player. If your resistance to life is a 10, even if life's challenges are a two, then the outcome is a 20.
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Chapter 6: What video did Pep Guardiola show Barcelona before the Champions League final?
What if I miss three in a row? So instead of whacking myself, I needed to go external to get – That thought out of my mind. So I'd start pushing my toes and the end of my boots into the ground for a couple of seconds. I was like, okay, cool. I can feel the grass at the end of my toes. Okay. And then I tell myself, okay, breathe.
And then all of a sudden for five seconds, I haven't thought about missing the kick or all the people that are watching me. So I go back to my routine, breathe. visualize the ball going through. So that was something that would really help me get back on track and just reminding myself to just live in the now. Control the things that are directly in front of you now.
And that's where the whole process focus rather than outcome focus really helped.
You know, the interesting thing about that line from Dan there is like he learned this quite late in his career, Damien. And I sort of, I suppose there's two things. Number one, how good could he have been if he'd have known about it earlier? I mean, does that matter? It's a nonsense question probably because he was the best of the best.
But I do wonder whether it's a reminder to us that even someone like Dan Carter is still looking for answers to the fear question at the very top of his game, having been a successful All Black for years.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, because it goes back to what you said. It doesn't matter where you are in your career. The more successful you become, the fears just get bigger because the platform gets wider and your brain will naturally, in those pressure moments, it goes to, it looks at three questions, which is what is expected of me?
Dan Carter's got this track record of being nigh on the best number 10 in the sports history. So expectations are high. Do I have the ability to cope with those expectations? And then what are the consequences of failure?
Now, when you're playing in a World Cup knockout tournament, the consequences of failure, going back to New Zealand, having been knocked out in the quarterfinals and the stigma and the anger of the fans is all quite significant. So the fear just grows bigger.
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Chapter 7: How can we apply these insights to everyday pressure situations?
Right.
I want to talk about leadership because we spoke to James Milner about Jurgen Klopp and he shared with us what a leader can do for their people. This is potentially the most powerful thing in this whole episode because if you're listening to this, by the way, and you're a leader at work, then you'll be thinking, oh, great, this is relevant. But you know what? Everybody's a leader.
All of us are leading someone, even if it's only ourselves. So have a listen to what James Milner has to say about Jurgen Klopp.
We lost the Carabao or the League Cup Final. I can't remember what the sponsor was then. The League Cup Final and the Europa League Final. And it was different to what we, you know, the English lads were sat in the corner. Like, he wanted everyone down in the reception. I think Hendo told the story. And, you know, we were, like, fuming. Like, don't want to be here. I want to go back to my room.
And he was like, it's important everyone's together. And he got us over and he wanted us all on the dance floor. And he'd come over three times. Come over, I was like, no. Come over a second time and he came over a third time. What was he saying? He wanted us to come over and what he wanted to do, he didn't know at this time, but he said, I want everyone on the dance floor.
Was he dancing as well? Yeah, he was having a dance at that time, but he wanted us over to do what he did after that, which I'll tell you. And he was like, he'd come over the third time, he was like, I'm your f***ing manager, get your arse over, basically. And we went over, I'm like, f*** sake. We've gone over and he starts, gives a speech and he was like, basically saying, this isn't,
this is the start of the journey, basically. Look what we've achieved this year. We've only just come in and, you know, basically, this is it. We're on a start here. Look what we've achieved and what he envisioned after that and what happened. But he was basically saying, look what we've achieved here and we haven't even started. And then he had us all singing We Are Liverpool.
and like obviously he's had a couple of drinks a few of the others aren't and it's like I don't drink so it's like obviously it makes it a bit easier for them but then you see his vision after and again that was probably the moment where two finals didn't win either but he saw the bigger picture and he thought we hadn't even started it yet guys
It's a great clip, isn't it? And it's a really good reminder about the importance of looking after our people. And, you know, if Jurgen Klopp can shift the mindset of an entire team because one person communicated complete belief, then it's a reminder how powerful all of us are in other people's lives.
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Chapter 8: What final thoughts do Jake and Damian share about dealing with pressure?
It's about someone like Jurgen Klopp creating this environment of, of honesty, maybe of challenge as well, where I think people begin to see more in themselves than they see in their leader. Does that make sense?
Yeah, very much. Yeah, I think that's really powerful. I mean, when you've worked in the paddocks, you've been around the dressing rooms, who's been the leaders like that that make themselves vulnerable, that have impressed you?
You know, I think actually... Someone who I thought wouldn't be vulnerable, but really was when you chatted to him was Steven Gerrard. I kind of had this impression of Steven Gerrard, as a lot of people do, that he was kind of like this bulletproof leader for Liverpool.
But actually, when you spend time with him, like, I suppose it's because one of the interesting things about television, right, is that it kind of breaks down all the barriers. You know, Steven Gerrard knew what he was doing on a football field. But when he first started working in television, he probably didn't know his way around a studio or putting on an earpiece or wearing a microphone.
This idea of humility and vulnerability when it comes to leadership, I think it's a really interesting conversation. And I think that... So often humility can relieve the pressure because as soon as we tie ourselves up into thinking I'm the person, I'm the winner here, I'm the one with the knowledge, I'm the one that can make this successful or unsuccessful, I think the whole thing falls apart.
I think this is a conversation about how high performers cope with pressure. The answer is, mate, they do it by leaning into the people around them, as you know. No single one of us is as good as a team of us. And you must have experienced this so many times in the dressing rooms that you've worked in over the years, where you have certain players that can't get to that vulnerable place.
And therefore, it means that all of that pressure that comes with their job they're dealing with inside, internally, they're not able to just kind of share the load with anyone.
Yeah, very much. I mean, do you remember that conversation we had with Dr. Pippa Grange when I said to her about banter? That's one of the things I often see in, you go in the dressing room and sometimes when it's really quite caustic and cutting and you can start to see the sort of debilitating effect it has in the dressing room and on teammates.
And I said to Pippa that I often refer to it as the language of the dickhead and She said it's the language of the insecure. That kind of banter of just putting the guardrails up, stopping anyone getting too close. And you do it through sort of like the waspish tongue or the acerbic comments that you make.
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