James Catledge
Appearances
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And, and I, I just needed the money. I needed to earn my own money. Mom didn't have enough money for, for bills much less. And I liked nice clothes. I wanted to wear nice button-down shirts. IZOD was a popular brand when I was a kid. I wanted to wear the IZOD and the polo. And I just, you know, my mom was Winnie the Pooh and Tuffskins.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I need to buy a car, so I need my commissions dedicated to the purchase of a used car. And I don't know what that means other than I need a car quick, like, because I'm not going to sell cars. In my mind, I'm going to sell enough cars to get a car to go back and get the job that I think I've secured. Well, I'm there 30 days. I pick out a black Dodge GLH.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Your kids, your kids were all six were on the deck.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
airplanes, pilots, beach houses, the whole thing, the whole thing.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. And I can't say as I sit here that we did as good as we could. You know, I think looking back, there's some things we could have done even better. But I will say, and maybe it's through the tough experience that we lived through together, they are more resilient today because they went through it. It's one thing to live in the $8 million house.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
and then moved to the $10 million house, and then moved to the $12 million house. It's a whole nother thing to go from the $8 million house to the $500,000 house. To the apartment.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
That's a whole nother adjustment. And we did it slower than I just said it. We did it slower, but we end up there. Yeah. And my kids had to make that adjustment. I'll just tell you a quick anecdotal story to that point. Six kids, right? The youngest boy is Nathan, okay? Nathan today is in college. He's in his sophomore year, wrapping it up at Brigham Young University.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Nathan lived through the heart of the difficulty. My litigation with the United States government lasted from 2008 to 2018, so a decade of the children's life, which is most of it. Yeah. They only know dad under pressure, right?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Whatever pressure one processes when the United States of America is prosecuting you, whatever that pressure looks like and however you handle it, the kids are observing that. And somehow this 18-year-old boy in the middle of all this becomes captain of his football team. Homecoming king, 4,000 students in the high school, homecoming king. There's not 19 of these homecoming kings, okay?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
There's one homecoming king. He is the most kind, gentle, Young man, when I was inside, and maybe some other time we'll get into how I get inside, but I'm inside a federal prison. Oh, we're gonna get to it. Okay, we're gonna get to it. Well, while I'm inside, this is the boy who arranged the kids to come visit. This is the boy who made sure everybody was in the car.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
This is the kid who watched his dad not only go through it, but maintain communication, clarity, love, support, and made sure everybody in the family knew how good dad was doing and how well dad was doing, how safe dad was, how everything was going well for dad. And I wrote a blog inside. He's the one who published that blog. Each entry he published.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So he had to read it, clean it up, type it, publish it. I think in an odd way, Nathan's life got real. In a significant way. And I think it's blessed him. He is the most amazing. He'd been amazing interview. He's an amazing young man because of what he witnessed dad going through and how he managed it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Obviously he had to make choices to manage the way he did, but those choices he made, I think changed his life forever.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I have $9,000 now in cash and a Dodge GLH that's paid for. Now, I think the car was $1,200, okay? So we're talking about a nice car. And it's so loaded with dents down the side. It looks like they had a door opening contest with this vehicle because the entire side, all the way up front and back panel, In the same location, it's been jammed up a lot.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And then what seats were in. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, what's interesting, and I'll get you to the first breakthrough for me. So I get home from my Mormon mission and all my buddies are headed to BYU. They're all missionaries. These are my best friends on the planet. We've had this galvanizing experience together as missionaries. And my friend's from St. Louis. He drives down in his RX-7 to Memphis to pick me up. We're loaded with clothes and
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
footballs and shoes and we're headed out. He's been accepted to BYU. I have not been accepted. My grades in high school were too low to be accepted to BYU. I'm like a 2.8 grade point average. But I know that's where I need to be.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I need to be out there, you know, and hopefully while I'm out there, there's a way to get in BYU where you're not full-time day school, but literally your adult night school. And you kind of start there, get your GPA up, and they'll accept you to day school.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
No differentiation in the quality of the credits. It's just you're going to school at night. And that worked well for me because I need to work. So we get out there. I sit with my mother constantly. It's time to leave. Brian has picked me up in the RX-7. He's ready to leave. And I've not had a discussion about money, and I don't have any, okay?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
My money's been spent on my mission, and I haven't been home long enough to have a job yet. I'm going to school. And so I asked my mom. I said, look, I'm going to school. I know you don't have much. do you have anything that I could get started with? She says this, I'll never forget it. She says, I have $78 in my checking account. How much of it do you want? And so I know right then,
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
There'll be nothing.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And so I tell Brian, because we're planning on splitting gas money all the way out. You know how it goes. And then Brian's dad's a dentist. So he's got the apartment rented. I'm literally sleeping in an apartment paid for by my friend. I'm not accepted into this university.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, I got to figure it out now. And I don't have a car. It's his car. And so I know I need to be out there though, man. I just knew I need to be there. I didn't need to be at home anymore. And so I literally the next day walk to the bus, get a bus route map. it back then we had help pointed ads in the thrifty nickel or the newspaper. So I look for jobs that I think I can do.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And, and I, and for whatever reason, I'm, I'm broke and penniless, but I don't feel like I want to do a McDonald's or a taco, but just, this is just me and my weird way of thinking I want a professional job. Right. And I'm broke. So, I want to work at a radio station because for whatever reason, I think I would be a good disc jockey.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And in my mind, coming from Memphis, Tennessee, there was a disc jockey that was so famous, Rick Dees, that I think in my mind I could be a Rick Dees. And so I want to work at a radio station. So I get the bus to Salt Lake City for an interview at the radio station, and the guy says, look, You know, you don't have any experience in broadcasting. Why don't we put you in sales?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
We have this long interview about sales. And I was a missionary, so this is kind of fitting my skill set.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Show me the doors. Right. This guy is hiring me, basically. And I'm so excited because... First of all, there's no salary, okay? Salespeople aren't paid salaries. So this is not, you eat what you kill. Yeah, of course. This is a sales job. But nobody's telling you how much you can make either. No, no. There's no limit on what I can make. I eat what I kill.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I frankly like that because there's no limit on it, as you say.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Well, he says, you've got a car, right? This is the wrap up of the interview, man. Sure. I said, not yet. And he says, well, why don't you come back and see me when you get a car? And so I left that interview, get back on the bus, and I'm thinking, I got a job here. I got a job here. I have to get a car. So on the way back, I have the bus stop near Mountain Motors in Orem, Utah on State Street.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Now, I didn't know at the time I was headed to Mountain Motors, but when the bus stops, I see a used car dealership. this is where they have cars. So I need a car. I walk into Mountain Motors. This place is run by Persian businessmen, okay, in Orem, Utah. I walk in and I said, look, guys, I need a sales job to sell cars. And the guy says, let me introduce you to the sales manager.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
He introduced me. He says, what's your experience in car sales? I said, none, but I'm sure I can sell them. He says, well, okay, we're hiring sales guys. You know, by the way, most people are hiring sales guys. Word to the wise. Most people are hiring sales guys. And I said, here's the little caveat here. I need to buy a car, so I need my commissions dedicated to the purchase of a used car.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I don't know what that means other than I need a car quick, like, because I'm not going to sell cars. In my mind, I'm going to sell enough cars to get a car to go back and get the job that I think I've secured. Well, I'm there 30 days. I pick out a black Dodge GLH. I have $9,000 now in cash and a Dodge GLH that's paid for. Now, I think the car was $1,200, okay?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So we're talking about a nice car. And it's so loaded with dents down the side. It looks like they had a door opening contest with this vehicle because the entire side, all the way up front and back panel, In the same location, it's been jammed up a lot.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
That's literally the situation with this car. And so I talked them into Fort...
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
my without additional pay like they're going to take care of this car i said i need a body shop to bang this thing out and paint it because i this is ridiculous so they get all that done so i've got 9 000 bucks and this 1200 car and it looks good okay i go back now this this takes a month i go back to that job he goes man i didn't think we'd see you again i'm glad you're back i said i've got an idea and i proposed this now this is my first real hustle
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I proposed to him that I'm going to be going to school at BYU. Now I'm not even accepted into BYU yet, but in my mind, that's where I'm going to be. I tell him, why don't you give me Utah County as my territory? Now, Salt Lake City sits in one county, Salt Lake County. Utah County is on the other side of the mountain range.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
The radio station is in Salt Lake, but I don't want to drive up there every day. I want to handle accounts in Utah County where I'm going to go to school, where my apartment is. And he says, well, we got a guy down there. I said, what if I outsell him? Will you give me Utah County? He goes, well, you can both be in Utah County. I said, okay.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
He says, we also have some orphan accounts in Utah County that they no longer advertise with us. I'll give you that binder full of orphan accounts. And so what I did is I needed the history on how much they had spent. And I built a chart who had spent the most over the longest period of time. Those would be the ones I would start with. And what I did, we had cassette recorders back then.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I wrote the commercial. before I do visit one. And I got the morning announcer who's famous on the radio. Okay, Mark Van Wagner was the guy's name. I'll never forget this because no one knows I'm doing this and you're not really allowed to do this. I get him to record the copy as though it's a sold commercial. I haven't even visited the place yet to try to pitch it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
But I want the commercial recorded by a good, soundy disc jockey. I've written the copy. I like the copy. He likes the copy. Only people who ever approach the morning or afternoon drive car are people who have sold ads. Well, he's assuming these ads are sold. I don't have the discussion about where they are or aren't.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I go down with my cassette recorder that I purchased, play these ads, and I'm getting people to say, wow, who produced that? I say, well, I had a morning guy do it. And he said, we don't even have a contract with you. I said, not yet. I said, but I know if you see it the way I see it, you wouldn't want to do business with anybody else. Who else is writing your ads ahead of a relationship?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And so I ended up having this, Gene Harvey Chevrolet is my very first client down in American Fork, Utah. And they're laying big bucks out for advertising. And it's an orphan. And I'm restoring all the orphans. So eventually, it took six months. I'm the number one guy in Utah County. I go back to my guy and I said, my sales manager, all these names are coming to me, the memories of these fellows.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I said, look, I need my clothes dry cleaned. I don't have time to iron clothes. He says, here's what you do. Go down and get a 50% cash, 50% trade account under dry cleaners. I said, okay, so basically all his ad dollars are half in trade, half in cash. He goes, exactly. They'll do it for 50% to be on the station. I said, what if I do it at my favorite restaurant? He says, okay, 50-50.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I said, what if I do it at the gas station? So I am now... He greenlit? Because isn't that kind of... Yeah, but he greenlit you taking revenue from the station? Not only revenue from the station, but now the other guy in Utah County has got dry cleaning. He's asking me. I'm half his age. He's asking me where the dry cleaner is. He's asking me where the gas station is.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
There's one gas station that we've got to deal with. And the restaurants. I ended up at two or three great restaurants. So I am now living... but seems like a multi-six-figured income or trade.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Or trade. That's right. And I'm earning commissions off the accounts that I'm selling full blow at. So I would say that's my first real hustle because I figured out how their business model worked, and I figured that there's an opportunity here within this. Now I'm going to give you one more, and then we can shift back to you've got great questions. I don't want to miss any of them.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
One more experience I had. So I'm selling these ads in Utah County. I go to Mako Auto Body. They fix, they do paint and they do body repairs. And this is the place I have my Dodge GLH fixed. So I had a little time with the guys in there when they were fixing my Dodge, my door problem. And so I go into the GM of the place and I said, hey, look, you guys aren't on the radio.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You should be on the radio. He goes, what? the radio. He goes, he goes, what are the odds? We're going to be on the radio and run into the guy who had an accident. And that guy's going to happen to listen to the ad and bring it into Mako. And that's, that's, that's not going to happen. And I said, okay. And it dawned on me when he said this, I said, what are you doing right now for culture?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
How do they find you now? Walk me through this. How do they find you right now? You've got leases, you've got employees, you've got This big building? I said, there's a lot of expense going on. Are you just hoping to God they find you and drive in here with a busted up car? He goes, kind of. I said, what if I could provide you a list weekly?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
No, I don't really know where I'm going to get this list yet. What if I could provide you a list weekly of everybody that's been in a car accident in Utah County? Weekly. Weekly. He said, that'd be kind of right at the target of what we're looking for. I said, well, I don't want to talk too much about where I would get a list.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Cause I don't know, talk too much about where I get a list like this, but what kind of value is it to you? He goes, it'd be my whole ad budget. I said, I need to know a number. He said, well, I'd be willing to spend five, 6,000 a month on something like that. I said, I wouldn't make this exclusive to you. There's other people who need a list like this. He said, 8,000 a month.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And you can't use it with other repair shops, body people. I said for 8,000, I'll do it. Now, my little brother who's living with me, he's figured out James is making money. He's got dry cleaning. He goes out to live with me. I pay him $25 a week to go to every police substation in Utah County. And just get the reports. And print the reports and pay them if they need printed copies.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I now have a binder and my girlfriend is good with the Macintosh. She builds me, we make up the name and trust listing services. We literally build the list, contact number, it's all in the police record. The whole thing. I delivered it to him and I said, look, you can't have this without the eight grand and I'm gonna bring it to you. every month.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I'm going to bring you four times a month the list, but every month you're paying me eight grand." And he says, I'll take this every month of the year, all year, every year. So I'm selling ads, but this little thing dawned on me by listening to this guy, I'm hearing this guy explain that you're hoping to hell that somebody walks in here and needs a thing. We know who gets in car accidents.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
We know who needs their car repaired. And so I built like an email for them that they could send out with a discount, letting them know that sorry to hear about the accident. We take all the insurances and we're happy to bring you over in our town car to and from. If you've got a problem, we'll tow the vehicle. Nope. So basically I find out what he's willing to do.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I write it in kind of an email for him to use. for that list and we're hitting that list and he's got more business than he knows what to do with. I ended up selling it to a personal injury guy and a chiropractor.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Glad to be here.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Absolutely. That's how it works. This is Carnegie Rockefeller moving the fuel around the train car. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's the exact same deal. Oh my gosh,
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
If you're going to read a history book, you should watch those videos. Watch those videos.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Absolutely. I can see them having that discussion right now at Carnegie's office.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I did. Million a year. Not a millionaire, multi-millionaire, but million a year in cash flow. Yeah. How'd you get there? We wanted to take you from the radio station. Okay. So I end up staying in Provo, working my whole way through college, and I'm making...
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
driving a brand new affinity g20 i'm making good money in college i'm a six-figured guy in college okay and college is boring beyond belief i'm out earning the professors and for whatever reason as a kid that mattered to me like i've taken lessons from guys like i'm out earning economically and they had such a jump start on me i just for whatever reason in my little arrogant mind that mattered to me and so i end up
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
getting offered a job by one of my advertising clients, Miracle Ear Hearing Aids. Okay. So Miracle Ear is a franchise system. And the guy's name is Barry. He's spending lots of ads on our radio station. He says, I own five locations in Las Vegas. He says, I would like you, now I'm 24, 23, 24, wrapping up my college. He says, I want you, if you'll do it, to manage all five locations.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I said, I don't know anything about audiology or hearing, or I don't have any credentials in this. He said, this ain't about credentials. This is about selling hearing aids. I said, well, I'm not, I'm not interested in selling.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah. They're huge, huge markup. I think our parks were two or 300 and we're selling about 18, 1900 per year. Yeah. because to hear again is pretty powerful. Of course. To hear again. So I said, just tell me where the licensing is on this stuff, and do I need some type of medical credential? I mean, what are you talking about? Nope.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, so basically he explains all this to me, drives me down, and everybody he's employed is like triple my age. Like these people are all like, could be my dad or granddad. And I'm thinking, do you want me to manage these people? I'm literally right out of college. He goes, no, you know more than they know about sales. He goes, absolutely. You need to be an energy of these people.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I said, and you're going back to Salt Lake to run your franchises. I'm just loose down here with your people. He goes, exactly. So this guy put huge trust in me. I was already making, I think 130 was my last year in college. I made 130. Plus I got all this free trade. So it's almost like 200 grand in lifestyle. And so I need to make that. And what year is this? Yeah, by the way, it's a while ago.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
1991, I left BYU. Okay, so 91. 91, yeah. So I moved down here to Las Vegas where we are, and I take this job. I sign a one-year agreement with him. He's giving me a bonus on every hearing aid, a six-figured flat salary, 100 grand flat, $83.33 a month. I remember the checks, $83.33 a month. And then I want to say it's like $65 on every hearing aid. every ear.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So there's a huge incentive for me to go store to store, making sure hearing aids are getting sold. And how are you testing? How long is your testing taking? What are you saying? So I'm literally having these older fellows explain to me their process, which they didn't like, you know, it just seems too young to come at them like that.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
But I did understand the business dynamics of it and the business model. The other thing that helped me a lot is working in radio sales, I had to understand all these businesses and how they made their money and how they got their customers. I had to intuitively understand to write their ads. Like, what is their customer? How do they get there? What are the dynamics?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
What are the profit margins on their products? I had to understand all that about all those businesses. And so, in a really weird way, without planning it, I ended up becoming pretty knowledgeable about how businesses work.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
yeah right and being able to really provide quickly solutions to those pain points that were very appealing they responded to yeah yeah and by the way when you're spending money that's what a great copywriter does yeah that's exactly and that's what i was i was writing copy and what ended up happening was the the people who make the decision to spend money off the balance sheet
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
the owner of the business, okay? There's rarely a staff member making a decision about how much we will spend of our balance sheet money in this discretionary way. I usually end up meeting with the person who it matters most to. This is not like delegating to someone else to spend someone else's money. So I end up in these conversations and really in a weird way mentors
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
all these business owners in a really shadow way, mentoring my young mind about how the world looks, how businesses should look, how they could look. Good businessman, bad businessman. I'm able to observe that quickly, transactionally. So when I moved down here, I understood the hearing in business intuitively. I'd been writing this guy's ads forever.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And he is a mentor to me, a friend and a mentor. I do it for one year. I'm really bored. I'm bored. I'm in Montgomery Wards. I'm in Sears. I'm in wherever our locations were. We had a freestanding location over here in Tropicana in Pecos, and that's where my office was.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
and they can't hear it and they can't hear you yeah right exactly you're yelling you're yelling all day yeah and and the wives always can hear and the men usually cannot hear that that was the other day i think that's my choice that may that may be something they worked out it's my choice right what was it there was an old couple on like sort of the late night cup one of the late night shows and they said what's the secret to a long marriage and he's like what he goes i'm sorry he goes
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So I do that for a year. I'm attending church, still in the Mormon faith, and my bishop is an insurance agent general manager. He's like a GA, general agent for an insurance agency. I don't know anything about insurance. It sounds like a scam. We didn't have any as a kid. My family didn't own any insurance.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I don't quite understand the dynamics of paying premiums for 75 years and hoping that when you're gone, some stranger is going to deliver a check to your family for half a million dollars. The whole thing sounded scammy to me, but I liked this guy, this guy's mentor really is this Mormon Bishop. His name is Chris Zockel. And I say that because a lot of people in this town know Chris.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So he, as a Bishop says to me, James, you'd be very good at this. I don't know. I may have to hold my nose and jump in on this, and I don't know. I got a good gig where I'm at. He says, listen, we've got a proficiency test that the CEO of Beneficial Life has designed. Every agent has to take it. Just let me give you the proficiency test.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And it will tell us both whether you would be proficient at this. Strangest questions I've ever been asked. I mean, strange questions. So I go through this whole thing. He calls me. He submitted this thing. It takes a couple of weeks to evaluate in Salt Lake City. They send it back. He says, let's get together. I want to go through your proficiency test. He says, listen.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I've scored 60, 70 guys that have worked through the agency over the years. Never seen anything like it. I've never seen anything like it. Your score's off the charts. It's higher than mine by like 10 points. And he's the boss of the agency. I said, well, what does that mean? Because I do not, at this point, the way you've explained insurance, I don't like it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So what does that mean to have a high proficiency? It means you would make a fortune in this business. Whatever's going on in you is dynamically designed for this. And I just believed him and I was flattered by the comments. And he took me under his wing, taught me estate planning seminars. where he runs an ad in the local newspaper back in the day. If you were over 65, you read the newspaper.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And his flyers were for living trust.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, come for a free lunch. And so I was a pretty good public speaker, and he was very good because he's a bishop. He's very eloquent. And so I would sit there and take notes on his –
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
how he did his one hour seminar and then they would fill out a little lead card at the end what was interesting to them what they thought was they should do differently and and could he contact them he was a little lead card i would gather the lead cards make them feel welcome thank them for coming and let them know i would be the one back in touch with them that was my job in the relationship i'm the one that runs all these people down sets appointments for the boss so we do this for a year
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I think just on my split with him, I probably made $100,500 just on the splits. And I couldn't believe the money involved in financial services. I was shocked because we've got a lawyer doing the living trust work. We're doing the estate planning work, which is basically life insurance planning.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
and massive front end first nine months a lot of money yeah massive front end commissions yeah they small residual but massive yeah they pay almost the whole first year premium out in commission 120 in some cases yes yes and so i'm not into that juice because he's the boss i'm just an agent right you're on that you're on the you're on the producer's contract yeah exactly
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
What made you you? It's a great question. On my podcast, I interviewed my mother about a month ago, and I learned some things from her perspective that was quite interesting. And I asked this exact question, what was it like raising two boys by yourself? Mom was a single mom. And she gave me some insight that I guess you don't really remember who you are as a kid.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So I say to him, hey, look, I got a lot of guys from my mission that want to work with me. I said, is it possible for me to bring them to the agency? And I just need you to tell me what you make on me as a percentage. And then if you'll disclose that to me, I'll split it with you. It's your agency. It's not my agency. So I will train them. I will take full responsibility for training them.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I was a great trainer as a missionary, so I knew how to train people. And I've been doing this a year, so I've made enough money that I know how to teach this. I said, just give me half your split, and I'll take care of the guys. So we do that. I hire five or six guys. I'm making a lot of money now. I'm making about 300 grand.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
We're now three years into this, and I think I made 388 my last year with him.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A thousand. What's FFL? He's got a thousand agents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A thousand. We're going to get there. We're going to have more than a thousand. We're going to have more than a thousand in a second. Okay, all right. All right. So just to give you an idea, with one company, one company, I made 59 million in commissions. Okay. That's one company.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Gross commissions are over 120 million paid to me personally. Oh, okay.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
when we look at the other now this that those are commissions paid to me not not some gross number we now cut into that that's that's the number that's on the records with me so i figure out with chris splitting his number that i i'm good at this i'm good at leading people i'm good at teaching people i can make complicated things simple to understand intelligible and so
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I tell Chris, I want my own agency. Could you help set that up? I figure he's going to get some juice on that. No, no is the answer. And so I don't know that it takes me months to figure out that he's not helping me, that he's working the back channel against me. So I call beneficial life, the head court. I'm the number one guy in beneficial life. You say, I'm going to bounce.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I didn't even know to do that. I didn't even know to do that. I'm still Tennessee Mormon missionary. Loyal. I don't know this. Yeah, I'm an Eagle Scout. I don't really know how to do that kind of stuff yet. So I, yet, I called them and I said, look, I would like to have my own agency and I'll move wherever. I'll move to the Midwest, I'll move Northeast, wherever you need me, I'll do it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And they said, well, Chris has to sign off on it. And we've been asking him for about nine months to sign off on you because you'd be an incredible general agent. We know you would be, James. I said, what do you mean he's gotta sign off on it? You guys don't make that decision as a company?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
He said, we don't because he hired you, he brought you in, he gave you the proficiency test, he in a weird way owned you. I said, well, I said, here's the deal. I said, if that's the case, I can just tell you now my days are limited here. I'll find another way. And they said, we don't want to lose you. I said, well, then get Chris to do what he needs to do. So I go to Chris.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Now, by the way, Chris and I are still friends. We had breakfast the other day. Chris and I are still very, very close. I love Chris. But this is a, this is... Well, he's looking at it like it's business.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I totally respect his position here. But this is a young, ambitious entrepreneur. And I promise you, if that's who you are, you can't let stuff like this stop you. You can't let this stuff get in the way.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Not 25, but I'd worked out a deal with him.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
It'd been easier for me. You'd have been happy to do it. Happy. It'd been easier for me to do that. I'm married now. I just got married at this time, at this age, and she didn't want me to leave. I'd have stayed.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You may have the memories, but who you were is not clear yet. And she said to me that as she went to go to work, I was assigned various chores and all sorts of duties around the house. We were raised in Tennessee and my dad had left the house by age eight for me. My brother was five. So I'm kind of the man of the house at age eight.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah. And you're relentless. Go do it. Yeah. Go do it. Anyway, sorry about your story. No, no, no. That's right on.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Well, here's what I do. I let Chris know, you either cut me loose. Or I leave one way, you know, I'm leaving anyway. And he says, I just can't do it. So I did the hard thing. I went and found a office to lease. I take the receptionist who's at Chris's office with me, Elizabeth. She's my receptionist. She's been processing my apps, doing my paperwork. So if I leave, she leaves. My six guys leave.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I tell my wife we need desks in this empty cavernous space that I've rented. Need one for Elizabeth, I need one for me and the six guys. So we buy Office Depot desks that you have to assemble. My wife spends a weekend assembling desks with an Allen wrench. Those desks get all set up. We're now running an agency. I don't have a contract yet. I have a logo. I have a brand.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I do not have a contract yet. So a guy that I really admired who worked for Chris and it left maybe a year prior. Went out on his own. I go have lunch with him. His name's Scott. You may know this guy. Scott Childress is his last name. Name's familiar. Scott Childress was a baseball player for the California Angels. Rebels, California Angels, and then he's at Zockel's agency, and he's very good.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Very good. So I said to Chris, I need a contract. Who are you using? He says, oh, I've got your contract. I know what you need to do. I said, tell me. Tell me what you're doing. And, and I'm at this point, I don't just follow people around at this point in my life. I've seen enough been without enough. I keep my own company. That makes sense. I take data very rarely and moved.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
If I, if I'm, if I'm headed in a direction, it's hard to move me. So I'm basically investigating Scott's idea, but I do need a contract. And so he says, listen, I'm with a company out of Atlanta, Georgia called the World Marketing Alliance. I said, never heard of them, but it sounds real cheesy. That's what I said. World Marketing Alliance. I said, it sounds like Amway. What are you talking about?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And nothing's more disgusting to me in my mind at this age than some type of MLM stuff, okay? I'm a licensed guy. I'm professional in my head. Dry cleaning.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
It's all over the place. And I'm disgusted by the idea of it. And this is just my little arrogant way of thinking, okay? It's not right. It's just the way I'm thinking. Okay. So he says, World Market Alliance, you'll have your own contract with all the carriers. We've got lots of technology, lots of tools, lots of software. And I'm thinking, okay, that sounds great. It's a split. Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I'm in charge of, you know, protecting mom, if you can imagine age eight. And still scared of the dark at eight, still scared of the dark, very scared of the dark. One of my jobs was to take the garbages out. And I remember having this psychological battle with myself. The street was probably a hundred yards from the house and the garbages are out back. Street lights don't light up the backyard.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I said, I did ask him, I said, how much do you make on my efforts? He goes, well, if you do nothing, I make nothing. But if you succeed, you'd be a first generation manager to me. And he says, the great thing, James, is you can build your own general agents. And I thought, okay, that means I'd never lose a James Catledge. If I find one, I don't have to lose him for his ambition. He can stay.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And so that was very appealing to me. The idea that I could hire someone with my mindset, my skillset, and they never leave. And so I go on, it takes me about eight years, but inside that culture, That's where I made $59 million with that one company. Okay. Now, if you want to know how it ramps up.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Everything's fine. I'm going to make it a truckload of money.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
We didn't just wake up in a Ponzi scheme, and it was not a Ponzi scheme, although that is the journalist view of this. Here's what happened. World Market Alliance is sold. My mentor, Hubert Humphrey, sells it to Agon, a publicly traded company. I stay around one more year. We renamed the company World Financial Group. Better name. Yeah, definitely.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I leave World Financial Group, take about 300 guys with me. They write me a check for several million dollars because they're going to keep the rest of my guys. And now I sign a non-circumvention on the rest of my guys. I'm not going to take them. But I do have 325 that left with me. I start my own company. I now go get my own contracts. Agon provides me with one of my contracts, by the way.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I end up recruiting 8,000 agents. Not direct, but through my organization, I have 8,000 licensed guys. We are selling, you just cannot imagine the volume of transactions that are happening.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I have a real estate. Everybody, this is back when your housekeeper owned three rental properties. Okay. Sure. Okay. We all remember this, right? Everybody owned rental properties. We have no real estate to offer inside our portfolio. None. We're insurance, we're annuities, mutual funds. There's no real estate. It seemed like an omission.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So I tasked my CFO to go find us real estate. I don't want everybody to be with Century 21. It's a conflict. It doesn't make sense to get them all real estate license. We could lose half our guys. I said, find us an opportunity to offer real estate to our clients so that we have that in the quiver. He brings me a father-son developer team out of the Dominican Republic.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
They pitch us on their existing hotel operation. They want to turn into a timeshare operation. Now, they're going to leverage their existing paid-for hotel They're going to create timeshare fractional interest in it while they build out a new property. And then we're going to leverage fraction that one and build out a new property. So we're going to build three properties.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
The brand we're operating under is Maxim. You know, the men's magazine Maxim. This is our partner in branding. This is just the real estate side of my business. Okay. My guys are offering anywhere from $15,000 to $300,000 condominium fractional interest in the Dominican Republic on the ocean called the Maxim Bungalows. So if you're Googling this, Google Maxim Bungalows, Dominican Republic.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
There is no lighting in the backyard. And I've got to get 100 yards at age eight with two garbage cans. And I'm certain that the woods in the forest is filled with people trying to kill me. I'm sure of it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
That's our property. For five years, we sell $180 million worth of condominiums on the ocean in the Dominican Republic. In the sixth year, my partner and we, all money's flowing beautifully. I'm paid, company's paid, my clients are being paid. Everybody's winning. In the sixth year, it's 2020. Six, seven. The world's turning upside down economically. Vegas specifically. Money is less available.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
People don't have 401ks, IRAs. They're being depleted. There's less money to borrow, less liquidity in the market. My partner says, you've got to increase cash flow here so we can finish this third property. I said, what do you mean? We're selling these units And you're basically taking the money assigned to room 101 and building it. What do you mean we need to increase the capital?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
He says, I'm telling you, Catledge. That's the way he spoke to me. I'm telling you, Catledge, father, son, you've got to increase cash flow or we have a problem. I said, well, what could be the problem? We've got two finished hotels that are paid for. We're in the middle of the third. Cash flow is tight, but we're selling the units as we go. The clients have contracts.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And by the way, the largest law firm in the world, Greenberg Taurig, is paper and all this stuff. So this is all vetted. Everything's legit. There's no schemes that I'm aware of. He says, we're going to run out of cash flow, and I'm not worried about you, and I'm not worried about your people. I'm worried about the clients. I said, well, you have to pay the clients.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
They bought the units, so it's not constructed yet. You have to pay them their dividend that they're due until the thing's constructed. He says, we're not going to be able to do that. So my clients don't know anything about the Dominican Republic except for me leading them there. They couldn't find it on a map, except we took them there. And we did take them all there.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And so I remember taking the garbages down one specific time thinking, you know what? I don't like how this feels. I don't like the fear. The raw fear was overwhelming to me. When I got back in the house, I thought, you know what? No one else can take these garbages down. My mother won't do it. My five-year-old brother can't do it. He's physically not able to take them down. This is on me to do.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And they're all going there to do the transaction. I meet with the largest law firm in Nevada here, who is my lawyer for my company and my business dealings. Lionel Sawyer and Collins is my firm, right downtown Vegas here. My attorney says to me, I'm concerned your partners are not using the money the way you think they are.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I said, well, what's your legal advice? He said, I want to meet with their attorney here in my office. We bring him up from Santa Monica. They meet together. At the end of that meeting, my guy comes to me and says, I'm so glad we got that on the record. I made lots of notes. You're involved in a crime, an ongoing crime. He says, I've got all the notes on it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
The guy basically explained that they're taking new money. And using it to pay old obligations. That is the definition of a Ponzi scheme. I said, okay, so what do we do? He says, you need to sue them and get a receiver appointed to the property so they don't further diminution the damage to your clients. So I do.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I pay $1.3 million to a law firm in Miami, Florida that my attorney helped me select to sue in the Turks, Dominican Republic, and Canada, where these guys are from. in federal court in Miami. I spend 1.3 million, 644 clients are in this lawsuit. We're all plaintiffs. My salespeople are in this thing because we all own these units too.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
My wife and I, my mother, all of our friends, we're all in this stuff. We own these condos. The judge says after nine months of pre-litigation in the court, pre-trial stuff, he says, I'm closing the resorts. We're turning them back to the bank. And you guys need to sue separately the salespeople and the developer. Don't just sue the developer.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
The judge instructs my 644 plaintiffs to put the target on their salesperson, which is not me necessarily, but I'm running the company, and then name the company. So I now have 644 potential lawsuits, individual plaintiffs who have a claim that a judge has suggested they have. So this turns into a nightmare. SEC, IRS, Department of Justice,
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
All the windbreakers decide they need to take a look because the judge has suggested this. They take a look. I tell the FBI, I meet with the FBI, and I let the FBI know, hey, listen, I'm available for as long as you need to meet so you understand everything that's going on here.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
The moves I've made, the moves my people have made, so you understand the products we sell, I'm available for whatever you need. We meet for 14 hours against the counsel of my lawyer. He says, don't ever meet with them. Don't ever meet with them because they will figure out how to create a case if they don't have one yet. But I just felt like... They needed to know how it was all working.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I just felt like aiming the missiles at me would be inappropriate and certainly disproportionate to what really happened. And so I wanted to be helpful. Well, I didn't understand that cooperation means you've got to say you did something wrong.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
It means you, yeah, you have to say you did something wrong and then we charge you and then we go lenient on you while you help us get the other guy. I said, I will never do that. You're talking to the wrong guy. I have nothing to confess. I have nothing to admit to. There is not an email. There is not a Blackberry. There's not a text message. There's never been a smoke-filled room.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And oh, by the way, if you think I'm the dummy, you think we got in a room and decided to split the dough and I would take 20% and he would get 80? You met the other guy. You think I'm the 20 guy? Okay, so this is the discussion I'm having with the authorities. And I said, look, I was paid pure commissions. That's what I've always been paid. My guys were paid pure commissions.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I remember having this thought, how do I personally... not be so afraid, physically trembling afraid, like talking to myself loudly the whole way, trying to make sure that if there is anybody out here, they don't think I'm afraid because I'm having conversations out loud with myself. But I remember actually grabbing two knives out of the knife drawer, sharp steak knives,
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
My clients were paid the returns they were promised, all by paperwork by lawyers. I will never admit to something I did not do under any circumstance. Well, seven years into the tenderization of the United States government, the process, Uh, my attorney convinces me that the crime that they will likely convict me of is worth 28 years in a federal prison. Yikes.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So you can either find a way to find something you did wrong. that is a crime so that we can plead guilty to it. Or we go in and hope we don't gamble on 28, 28 years. And, and I said, I did nothing wrong. There's no evidence. I know, I know what went down. There's plenty of, I own this stuff. I own this. I have contracts where I put my money in this stuff. My mother's in this stuff.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
There's, if this is about facts, if this is about truth, there's no case. If it's about anything else, They could probably win. If it's about a narrative, if it's about rich guy versus poor guy, I'm going to lose on the rich guy gamble. He said, well, let's face it, James, you got all your money. You're paid 36 million directly 36. These folks may live in a cardboard box.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Now you're going to put 13 of them up on the stand with Kleenexes.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You got an airplane with pilots. Your handicap's five. You've played Augusta National. You've been all over the world. So it's going to be hard for a jury to believe you didn't know something that you didn't know. Even if you were willfully blind, that's a crime. So we get into all that. And in the end, two weeks before trial, my attorney says, let me go negotiate a deal for you.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You must let, don't be delusional here. Don't be arrogant. Don't be delusional. And I'm telling your audience, I'm telling you right now, I don't care how smart you are, how sharp you are, how clear you are. I want you to understand you can be convicted of a crime tomorrow afternoon if it's the government's wish to do so. So don't be arrogant.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Don't be thinking you shouldn't have gotten in, shouldn't have got yourself into something. There's nothing to get into here except real business, okay? And everybody that's in real business could be taken down tomorrow afternoon if they're arrogant enough to be so.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, it's all about what they would like to do and the narrative they can create with the jury.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I didn't end up going. I was convinced by my lawyer to plead guilty to one count of mail fraud. Which was how long? I pled guilty to a five-year cap, meaning no matter what the judge says, I cannot be sentenced to more than five years. So that's what I agreed to. Okay. And mail fraud has up to 20 years in the statute, but I wasn't gonna be open-ended in my plea.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I pled to a cap of 60 months, and I went in and told the judge that I felt horrible about what had happened. This is called your elocution. horrible about what happened. I had no intention whatsoever to harm anybody. I didn't need to harm anybody. There's no motivation for me to harm anybody. I would have made more money had the project continued forward with no harm.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
But we find ourselves in a situation where responsibility has to be taken. I'm willing to take it. I'm willing to do time on it. And so I played guilty to one count of mail fraud and allowed myself to be sentenced to 60 months in a federal prison. And I was very blessed.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
They don't come get them. You use them to defend yourself. Uh, you, you, you, you end up in eight years with no cashflow living. Did they hit you for restitution on all this? Sure. Sure. Yeah. I have a restitution agreement, which I honor with the U S government, which is a manageable, uh, situation, which anybody that's got restitution, it can be structured where it's manageable.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And literally, you know how the garbage cans are. You got the handle there. I remember having a knife in each hand as I grabbed the handles of the garbages and took them down. And I literally had the thoughts what I would do if someone came for me with those knives. Literally had the visceral plan in action. And I don't think I was ever afraid again to take the garbages down.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I, and I have one and I honor it. Uh, But I did 14 months is the bottom line. That's what I want to get to. I did 14 months inside. And, and I will be honest if, if I compare my mission to those 14 months, those 14 months changed my life forever. The guy I am right here today could not. I like me today.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Okay. Now I like me then too. I was happy guy. You meet me then you you'd like me then, but I have a depth. of compassion and sensitivity that simply was turned off prior to going inside. I don't know when it got turned off. Maybe it got turned off as a kid when dad pulled out, but it got turned back on inside. And I was able to help a lot of guys. They changed my life. I made a difference.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I had influence on the yard. And you lead wherever you go, by the way. I don't care if you're inside, outside, leaders lead. And my life is, I am friends today with a fraternity of brothers, some guilty, some not, most are, and it doesn't matter inside. It doesn't matter. And that fraternity to this day is important to me. They'll call out of nowhere and I'm there for them.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I would never met these men. I've never been in their neighborhoods. I'd never known them. And many, many, Very high net worth, very successful entrepreneurs also inside that there's a lot to learn. So what's the focus now? Well, I'm a consultant today in the very space that I had all my success in. I helped several local financial services firms and then some that are national.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I've developed a piece of technology that's quite profitable, a subscription-based model that scores clients on their... retirement readiness and tax efficiency, AI-based subscription model for financial planners so that they've got my brain in every appointment. So if they're sitting with someone and they're maybe new or maybe have a lot of experience, literally the AI was inferenced on me.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
It was trained on me and how I would handle an appointment, what I would do, what I'm looking at, the questions I would ask. So that's what I'm doing today. That's what you're doing today.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Totally. Because of this. I was naive to many things there, and I'm not blaming anything that went on to naivete, but I did not know enough about cash controls on a real estate venture to be that deeply involved. I was basically their sole source of capital, and we were very proficient at our part of it. Yeah. Too proficient to not know enough about the other side.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I just didn't know enough about the other side.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I took the knives a few more times. Yeah, just to make sure I was ready. But as a boy, I remember having to overcome, personally solve that problem. And it, for me, was a real problem. I was the type of kid that when we come home from being maybe at church or being out to eat with my mother, she would have me go in the house first.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Absolutely.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Fundings everywhere.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And that was one of many things we were doing. We were still running the big financial services firm. This was a division of that company. This was extra money. This was extra. It was extra.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And we were good at it. They loved us. They...
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
you know what i don't know how much it made me think this goes on a lot and we just don't know it as long as the project finishes nobody asked the questions see i think skimming goes on a lot i think of all these big buildings that get built in my mind i'm thinking there's probably guys like me that raise the funds to build these big structures and the guys building it have everything padded and invoiced way beyond reality and this thing's getting skimmed on the whole time as long as it gets finished nobody's got the questions rule rule number one of
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah. Right.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
riot yeah yeah let me let me deal with this because this was hard it's such a great question this is a great this is a great question let me once once it's destroyed and it doesn't take long to destroy it you have to come to the and this is really important to get you have to come to the reality that you didn't build your reputation what you actually built was your character
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And that's all you ever had control of ever anyway. And so I believe a lot of my rise again, my second rise, if you will, my return, my restoration is tied to character because the people who knew me before are still with me today.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
When I was released, I had hundreds of people that I know, contacts, even victims, people who lost money that know I had nothing to do with it, come to me and say, you're starting over. Do it with me. You're starting over. Let's do it together. I know you need a break. Consider what I'm doing.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
All of these moments happened, and I attribute it, and I wouldn't have known it ahead of time, but I certainly wouldn't have planned for this to occur. But you realize that how you manage the difficult times will determine everything. where you land when the storm clouds pass. Like, like either you grovel and become a sourpuss and become a victim and become, this is, this is terrible.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I'm eight and identify if there's any intruders before she comes in or before my little brother. And no one's more scared than me at eight going in. Did you think mom liked the little brother more than you? Like, hey. Well, he's five.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You should never done this to me. I, government has taken me down a road I should never been on. Or, You say, you know, I can't do anything about this. I've got to focus on the controllables. Control the controllables. What I can't control is how I treat people. What I can't control is how I manage this situation. What I can't control is my spirit, my... My spirit cannot be taken.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You can take everything from me, but you can't take my soul. I have to give that to you. And so you make some decisions in the difficulty that frankly are part of the chemistry that's already you. It just doesn't get tested until this moment. And it's in that testing you realize, you know what? You can have the reputation. I'll take the character. Because with character, you got it all.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You got it all. And you're totally at peace with who you are day and night and your friends who you're friendly with. They're the friends who know you. It's not the guys who want to get in the plane. It's not the guys who want to get to Augusta, go to the Super Bowl with you because you're rich. It's the guys who love you, who know you, who can look you in the eye.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You're their trustee on their family estate because they know who you are. So I think the lesson for me that I couldn't have learned unless I got to the backside of it is character is all that mattered anyway.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Man, if they want to find you, James, where do they find you? You know, I have a podcast, Inside Out with James Catledge. It's on YouTube, Apple, Spotify. The whole story is told there in small, bite-sized increments. It's an honor to be with you today, and I appreciate being a guest here.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So this is, there was none of us that were brave enough to do it without fear. But I remember having these really visceral reactions to fear and I didn't like it. I did not like how I felt. I felt weak. I felt consumed by it. And I didn't like myself for feeling that way. So I had to go through problem solving to not feel that way.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I think my life's been full of that problem solving, presented with something that no one else can fix but me.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
That's right. That's right. You've got to overcome it. You've got to solve it. I'll tell you one more on the same line of thinking. I was a Mormon missionary, which was a great privilege for me. At age 19, I was called to be a missionary in Santa Rosa, California. And I remember feeling like such an imposter.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
This whole thing, you know, imposter syndrome where people feel like they're not qualified for this. They certainly are not qualified. don't know enough to do this job, this task. Many entrepreneurs feel this way, and certainly as a Mormon missionary, I'm called, I have the name tag, I've got the suits, but inside me, I am not up for this.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I really don't know what's going to happen if someone opens the door, okay? So luckily for me, when I arrived, you get a trainer, okay? He's another 19-year-old, but he's been there longer than you, so he supposedly knows what to do. Well, I had a pretty good trainer, and I like him. I look up to him. In a way, there was some admiration there from me to him.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
When I got there, he had torn his ankle or had a sprained ankle or something, and we couldn't do our job for like three weeks. We're in this apartment, and I'm basically spending three weeks telling him how good I am, if you can imagine. I'm literally talking myself up, talking my game up to him about how ready I am, and this is 100% brainwashing myself as I'm doing this. Well, the day comes.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
We've got the ankle better. And we're going to have to find out what I can do and what I can't do. And your job as a Mormon missionary is to, in many cases, knock on doors. And if a stranger, the homeowner, lives there, they open it. And then you begin this very...
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
quick, weird exchange about religion and about Jesus Christ, which is so personal for everybody, including us, the Mormon missionaries. But it's happening on their doorstep with strangers. You're trying to get them to let you in. That's success. If they let you in, there's a full blown discussion
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
path funnel if you will that were to take them down well we get we lock our bikes to the stop sign we're walking the sidewalk and and he basically outlines we're going to do this street this street and then the one behind them we're going home for lunch and i i i've been talking myself up to this guy pretty much non-stop he actually believes what i've been saying about my capacity my capacity is not nothing i am unproven but i've talked it up
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So I make a decision after locking the bikes that I'm going to step into this and kind of own it. And I tell his name is Merrill Taggart. Okay. Merrill Taggart is from Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Okay. And I, and I love, I come to love Merrill Taggart from this experience, but I told elder Taggart, that's what we call each other. Let me take the first door.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Now, this is all I can do to even say this out loud to him, but I feel I need to trap myself into this experience. And so I do. He says, are you sure? I don't mind showing you exactly, you know, which I said, no, I'm ready. I'm not ready. I'm filled with fear, not the fear of the darkness and the forest.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I don't need knives, but man, I need courage because I've now trapped myself, which by the way, is a technique I've come to use throughout my life, trap myself psychologically into victory. And so he says, this would be, this would be interesting. Let's do it. We walked to the first door.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
i'm praying to god on high nobody's home please don't answer whatever i'm even knocking softly please don't hear this in the back room don't answer the curtains move i know they're in there he knocks louder like the cop knock now he's knocking man he he wants them to open the door he's prepared jesus is here yeah right the jesus troops have arrived the door
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
so literally the lady opens with the lock you know the chain on pulls it open and i said uh we are mormon missionaries a long ways from home this is literally we're more this is not in the training we are mormon missionaries a long ways from home and we'd love to tell you why we've come so far from home And I just kind of left it like that. That's a solid opening. It's literally what I said.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I remember her slipping the chain up thinking, don't do it. Don't do it. Don't open that door. She opens the door. She says, why don't you guys come in? Would you like a drink of water? And now I'm relaxing a little bit. I'm calming down. And he kind of takes over. And he kind of does the thing. And he's so eloquent. He's so good. You'd think he's 50 years old. He's so good at this.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Well, that was day one. trap myself and do it. And then I felt comfortable doing the rest of the doors. And I ended up having a fabulous mission, great experience and leadership, accountability, responsibility, and it changed my life. You know, I never put it together.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
No problem. No, you've got nothing to sell that we would have a problem selling.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Absolutely.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Now one other thing you'll like about recruiting Mormon missionaries is we're trained at the age of 19 when folks are busy getting their first bar experience and getting their first tattoo perhaps and which piercing do I want next. We are trained in nine o'clock accountability. At 9 p.m. we are to call our district leaders who are other 19 year olds like us but somehow they're in charge.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And by the way, we have in our pocket what they call the daily planner. It's a physical calendar, not a digital calendar. It's a physical calendar where we've marked all these units of activity that matter, high leverage activities that lead us to what we're after, which is baptisms. Mm-hmm. Well, people joining the church, that's what we're after.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
That's literally what we call it. How many converts? So we are calling in at night. If we don't call in at nine o'clock, they call us. If they can't reach us, they drive their bicycles or their car over to find us.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
We actually pay for the experience. That's wild. Yeah. It was so good for me. So good.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, yeah. That's such a good question. First of all, you think of the allowance and everything and what I had to do to get the allowance.