James Pogue

And, you know, he would have said, well, the way we fix this is by unleashing capitalism. Graeber thought it was by building a more communal society where people had more agency amongst each other. But the trick here is that when you talk, for example, about masculinity.

And, you know, he would have said, well, the way we fix this is by unleashing capitalism. Graeber thought it was by building a more communal society where people had more agency amongst each other. But the trick here is that when you talk, for example, about masculinity.

There's a really fundamental question that you're seeing even people like Mark Zuckerberg wrestle with now, where he's saying, you know, masculine culture has been excluded from American corporate culture and things like this. And what people are wondering is, you know, do men need violence to feel good?

There's a really fundamental question that you're seeing even people like Mark Zuckerberg wrestle with now, where he's saying, you know, masculine culture has been excluded from American corporate culture and things like this. And what people are wondering is, you know, do men need violence to feel good?

Like, are men supposed to be ultra competitive and, you know, the best men get the best women and the others are sort of shunted aside? And, You know, that's sort of the Bronze Age pervert kind of thing. Do men need a physical culture in order to feel good in their lives and progress and do excellent work in whatever field they've chosen? And like...

Like, are men supposed to be ultra competitive and, you know, the best men get the best women and the others are sort of shunted aside? And, You know, that's sort of the Bronze Age pervert kind of thing. Do men need a physical culture in order to feel good in their lives and progress and do excellent work in whatever field they've chosen? And like...

You know, what we're seeing is that turns out to be quite compelling even to bring back Zuckerberg to someone who has discovered, as I did many years ago, Brazilian jiu-jitsu. And if you're in the world of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, like, suddenly you are in a very masculinist culture. And it's not a super violent, competitive, bad thing.

You know, what we're seeing is that turns out to be quite compelling even to bring back Zuckerberg to someone who has discovered, as I did many years ago, Brazilian jiu-jitsu. And if you're in the world of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, like, suddenly you are in a very masculinist culture. And it's not a super violent, competitive, bad thing.

I don't know, misogynist world, but it is a world where I think everybody gets on the mat and goes, if I didn't have this, like I wouldn't be okay in my life. And so, you know, you could argue, and I will argue here that probably Mark Zuckerberg is pretty far into these new right-ish conversations about masculinity. And I think this sort of goes back to the tech skepticism.

I don't know, misogynist world, but it is a world where I think everybody gets on the mat and goes, if I didn't have this, like I wouldn't be okay in my life. And so, you know, you could argue, and I will argue here that probably Mark Zuckerberg is pretty far into these new right-ish conversations about masculinity. And I think this sort of goes back to the tech skepticism.

Can you build technologies that in fact help people, in this case men, as they're very preoccupied with, can you help men work in tech fields that are going to build things, that are going to go Mars, that are going to answer that sort of thing they believe about men need a searching quest, men need violence, men need competition, are we going to go take Panama?

Can you build technologies that in fact help people, in this case men, as they're very preoccupied with, can you help men work in tech fields that are going to build things, that are going to go Mars, that are going to answer that sort of thing they believe about men need a searching quest, men need violence, men need competition, are we going to go take Panama?

Some of this is literally going back to just understanding tribal societies and thinking like, If men don't have a project to go to war and do something for their collective nation or tribe, they're going to feel lost.

Some of this is literally going back to just understanding tribal societies and thinking like, If men don't have a project to go to war and do something for their collective nation or tribe, they're going to feel lost.

And behind the scenes, you will hear people, I did, this has been years I've been hearing this, like we have to invade Mexico and take out the cartels, not because it's good policy, but because if we fight China, it's going to get really bad. But if we don't have a war, nobody's going to have anything to do or shape us. War is a force that gives men meaning. Exactly.

And behind the scenes, you will hear people, I did, this has been years I've been hearing this, like we have to invade Mexico and take out the cartels, not because it's good policy, but because if we fight China, it's going to get really bad. But if we don't have a war, nobody's going to have anything to do or shape us. War is a force that gives men meaning. Exactly.

And so that's kind of how you square that circle, at least how I understand it. And just to jump in here, I know this is a long answer, but I think it's relevant.

And so that's kind of how you square that circle, at least how I understand it. And just to jump in here, I know this is a long answer, but I think it's relevant.

And so RFK is a super, super compelling addition to this coalition. I think it's actually, in a weird way, the most interesting part of this coalition. But, you know, RFK, you could think of a strong ally of the worldview that RFK is bringing as being someone like Thomas Massey, who's not really new right. Do you want to say who Thomas Massey is?

And so RFK is a super, super compelling addition to this coalition. I think it's actually, in a weird way, the most interesting part of this coalition. But, you know, RFK, you could think of a strong ally of the worldview that RFK is bringing as being someone like Thomas Massey, who's not really new right. Do you want to say who Thomas Massey is?