James Romm

Or to actively reject what he's telling you.

The problem of Nero's love life right from the get-go divided Seneca and Nero because Seneca wanted to defend the legitimate wife, Octavia, who represented the stability of the empire, the future dynasty, and the union of the two branches of the royal family.

And Nero didn't want anything to do with that.

Yes.

He wanted the hottie.

Yeah, it's a fascinating study.

The place of Stoicism in the heart of the Roman Empire, in the...

And the fact that it later got banished from the palace as a threat to imperial power, that too is part of the story.

You mentioned Domitian and the exile of the philosophers from the royal court.

At that point, it had been determined that Stoicism could not get along, could not be incorporated into the power structure.

Yes, very true.

And it's interesting that Marcus has become sort of our primary touchstone for Roman Stoicism.

And...

by far more popular, more widely read than either Seneca or Epictetus, and certainly more so than the other minor figures, you know, Marcus has really gripped the imagination.

I think in part because of his royal power, because he was able to resist the pull into

Into hedonism, into vice, into family murder.

Of course, he did some bad things.

Let's not, let's not.

We still grade him on a curve.

We grade him on a curve.