James Viver

And unless you've gone through it, you can't even begin to understand.

And I think, you know, the more you chat to them and the more you even try and consider it, you think, well, it's not even my place to even begin to imagine, let alone.

And you can guess and you can talk to them about it.

But like you say, the sleepless nights and the thoughts that go through their head, I mean.

It's horrific, really.

And the fact that, you know, John has sat there through the entire trial near enough every single moment.

It just is the strength that takes is staggering.

It has to be said.

But so to answer your question, no, no, I can't, because thankfully I haven't.

been through that.

You know, you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy, really.

I mean, it really is brutal.

It's something that they didn't choose, but it's been just the back note or probably the forenote to their entire lives.

The kind of, I suppose, symmetry of it, I think is worth noting that these two men are roughly the age that Irma and Gregor were that night in 1999.

And when it comes to sentencing, whatever length, you know, they're in their early 70s and...

The symmetry of those life moments, I think, is quite profound.

Absolutely.

My pleasure.

Thank you for having me.