Jeff Guinn
Appearances
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Well, he comes back from Israel in the late 1980s. And George Roden is currently in place there. To get George out, there eventually is a gun battle. And there's a trial where Vernon Wayne Howell and six followers come up for attempted murder. George, of course, had come out with an Uzi to defend himself. Ultimately, the case was thrown out. The jury couldn't convict anybody.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
George verlässt, versucht jemanden zu töten, tötet jemanden, geht zu einer medizinischen Institution und das ist George. In der Zwischenzeit hat man den neuen David Koresh als Anwalt. Und es dauert etwa sechs Jahre, bevor man diese letzte Konfrontation haben wird. Sechs Jahre, um David Koresh seinen Followern zu erlernen, dass er der Erste ist. Sie glauben das, weil sie alles in der Bibel glauben.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
They believe that there are prophets among them and that God has sent them, David Koresh. They must do all he says, which includes all the men becoming celibate, all the women becoming his wives, and that includes little prepubescent girls. This is a man who's raping children. Yet he's doing it in the name of the Lord. And anyone looking at the Bible... kann die Bibel in neue Wege interpretieren.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Und jedes Mal, wenn David Koresh das tut, zeigt es sich einfach an seinen Followern, dass er der Herr ist, weil wer sonst außer dem Herrn diese Bedeutung sehen könnte, die niemand jemals gefunden hätte.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
That's true. And their excuse for that was that they were simply following a biblical injunction that the prophetess should grow heavy with child, even though she was beyond childbearing years. They had the sex, they didn't have the child, but that was okay because
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
David konnte immer sagen, wenn Dinge nicht komplett funktionierten, wie er propheziert hat, dass Prophezeiung nur passieren würde, wenn alle das tun, was sie geplant hatten. Wenn sie es nicht taten, dann würde die Prophezeiung nicht wahr werden und es war nicht seine Schuld.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Bis heute gibt es überlebende Branch Davidians, die mit dir verabschieden würden. Sie könnten denken, dass du ein Prophet bist.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Es gab Investitionen in den Branch Davidians von den Child Protective Services of Texas, zum Beispiel, ob Kinder an einem sehr jungen Alter getötet wurden, was tatsächlich war. Sie dachten, dass die Bibel ihnen das gesagt hat. Aber die Branch Davidians, wie jeder andere religiöse Gruppe, jeder Gruppe der Glauben, mussten Geld verdienen. um ihre Aufklärung und ihre Ausführungen zu bezahlen.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Sie hatten eine Garage, eine Branch-Davidian-Garage, wo sie Fahrräder anbauten. Sie hatten eine Reihe von Wänden, die ihre Frauen zählen würden, aber sie verkauften auch Waffen. Und Bill Clinton ist in einer Art verantwortlich. Wir haben die Präsidentenwahl vorliegen. Clinton ist ein erster demokratischer Nominee. And he's talking about gun control in America.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The NRA immediately begins panic advertising that he's going to try to take away your guns, particularly semi-automatic and automatic weapons. And that if you wanted to have an automatic weapon, you wanted an AR-15 that could spout out hundreds of bullets per second, you better get one now because Clinton's going to be president and they won't sell them anymore.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Die Branch Davidians fangen sofort an. Sie kaufen semi-automatische AR-15-Rifle und verwenden sie bei Mount Carmel in vollautomatische. Dann gehen sie zu Schauspielern und verkaufen sie. Es ist ein rohrendes Geschäft.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Well, the Mag Bag was actually the garage. But because they then grew into, we're going to sell hunting vests and these guns, they would use the Mag Bag address, the garage address, as to where they wanted all the parts sent. And when the government started investigating, all the gun parts are going to the Mag Bag and they assume that means it's the guns. It wasn't, it was the car repair.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
But again, mythology takes over. Point being that now they're doing this, they're converting these guns and it's not illegal. It is not illegal as long as for every gun you convert, you register the fact that you did it and you pay a tax. And the Branch Davidians are not doing this. They're selling some guns, but they're also storing up a bunch of others for this coming big battle. Grenades.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Correct. And the ATF in and of itself is the most unpopular government agency in the United States of America.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
They are the punching bag for the NRA, these thugs, these jackbooted thugs. Stormtroopers who are going to force themselves into your home and take away your guns. That's the way they're shown. And yet, this is one of the most cost-efficient, effective agencies in America.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
In the three years before what happens in Waco, you're talking about a group, an organization that conducts about 2,700 raids on drug dealers, gun runners, some of the skankiest people in America. And in all those raids, only three times are shots even fired. This is how efficient they are.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
And yet, they're unpopular, there's always talk, they're going to be rolled into the FBI or some other agency. And in early 1992, there's talk that they may be in their last year. Clinton is talking about the possibility, this would save money, it'll condense government. They don't want that to happen.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
So they're trying to think, what can we do that just proves to the public we're absolutely necessary. They start looking into the Branch Davidians at Mount Carmel because of the delivery man's complaint. And they pretty soon track down that what the Branch Davidians apparently are doing are illegally converting guns to fully automatic without paying the taxes or doing the registration.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
That's breaking the law. And because of that, Legally they should in fact be raided by the ATF. The investigation takes months. ATF is trying to really get this nailed down. Because they make the decision that here is some crazy religious group. They never actually bother to try to find out what the Davidians believe. Just the religious nuts.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
They start comparing them to People's Temple, the Jonestown Massacre, to the Manson family, some weird demagogue. And they build it up so if they do this properly, they go in there and without a shot being fired, get these guns from these religious nutcases. In March 1993, when they have to go before Congress to try to get their budget confirmed again, they'll have this great success.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
We save the country from these gun-running criminals. Religiöse Fanatiker.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
There was never supposed to be a siege. The ATF had basically two different ways of running a raid when they're going to try to take a group by surprise. The first is surround and call out. This would be a siege, where the Branch Davidians wake up one morning and there's the ATF all around Mount Carmel saying, come out with your hands up, we got you. And we can wait as long as we need to.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Der andere nennt sich dynamische Entfernung. Wenn man eigentlich in die Gegend geht, wo die Anwesenden sind, sich zwischen ihnen und ihren Waffen befindet und sie besiegt. Und ATF ist gut bei beiden von diesen. Sie machen letztendlich die Entscheidung für dynamische Entfernung, weil die Branch Davidians dieses Kachet von Waffen haben. Sie haben Lebensmittel, die sie für Monate halten können.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
ATF entscheidet für eine dynamische Entfernung. Sie werden sie überrascht nehmen. Um das zu tun, müssen sie Mount Carmel ausbauen. Nun, wahrscheinlich der beste Weg, um das zu erklären, ist, dass man sich eine desolierte, schmutzige Lande bilden muss, nur nach Norden von Waco. Kleine, scharfe Straßen, manchmal gepaviert, manchmal Dirt. Schmutzige Brasen, keine Bäume, viele Feuerwände.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
late 1992 and early 1993 rents one of the houses across the way. And they're going to fool these dumb religious fanatics and put eight of their male agents in there. And the agents will simply watch how the Branch Davidians go about everything, figure out how they can do the raid. Problem is, these guys are all in their 30s, they have short haircuts.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The Branch Davidians figure out one day after they move there that these are government agents. They don't know what agency... Aber sieh, es ist Beweise. Das ist Babylon.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Babylon schließt sich ein. Und sie lassen sogar einen dieser Agenten Mount Carmel infiltrieren. Sie wissen genau, wer er ist, aber sie lernen mehr über ATF oder wer auch immer diese Leute sind von der Regierung, von dem, dass dieser Typ kommt. Also er sagt seinen Superioren, naja, sie wissen nicht, wer ich bin. Natürlich wissen sie. Wow.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
So the idea is, they get information from him what the Branch Davidians day is like. That every morning, the men who don't have day jobs in town are working digging this huge pit. The Branch Davidians say that it's just a tornado shelter. The government thinks they're making a bunker. You know, they're getting ready to try to hole up in there. So most of the men are out of the main building.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
They're told by informants, former Branch Davidians, that all the guns... and there's an arsenal, everybody agrees, are kept in one locked room and only David Koresh can give permission to get in there. That's why dynamic entry seems like a good idea. The men go out working the pit, ATF comes charging in, the women and children in the big house are safe. Nobody gets hurt. That's their plan.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The problem is, of course, that the element of surprise gets lost and that's where everything really goes to hell.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
ugly little section of the world. And trust me, it's ugly. I was there a lot. It's on top of a low sloping hill. There are no trees or anything. There's no cover. For about a hundred yards from the main road, and the main road is about this wide, there's a circular driveway. ATFs decided they're going to surprise these rubes by having their 76 agents make the approach in two cattle trailers.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
In this backcountry area of Texas, there's cattle trailers all the time. The Branch Davidians, who clearly can't be too smart if they're following a psycho like David Koresh, will see two cattle trailers coming up the driveway and think, you know, some dumb guys just took a wrong turn.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The problem for ATF, of course, is if the Branch Davidians happen to be waiting for them on the high ground, already armed, with fully automatic AR-15-style rifles. There's no cover for their agents. The agents could literally be blown away as they try to get out of the cattle cars. And ATF is so confident that these people are too stupid. They're never going to guess what's going to happen.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
We'll take them by surprise. They have no plan B, for if they've lost the element of surprise. And so, on the fateful morning, the two Cattle trailers come chugging up. Out the agents are going to burst. And as they do, the shooting starts. Now you have 76 government agents not armed with powerful, fully automatic guns at all. And they are facing without cover. Think about that.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
About 80 branch Davidians leaning out of the windows that just dot Mount Carmel all over. Oh mein Gott. Oh mein Gott. It was a bloodbath and ATF agents who fought in it and survived told me they were Vietnam veterans and they had been in massacres in Vietnam and they had never seen a bloodbath like it. Yikes. It was horrible.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
They can't climb back in the trucks. The trucks are shot to bits. There are three different attempts at ceasefire. There's a phone inside Mount Carmel and a county sheriff's office. They're on the phone with the Davidians during this, trying to arrange some kind of ceasefire. But the thing nobody else understands but the Davidians is this.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
They believe this is the assault from Revelation as prophesied by David Koresh This is the big one. They've got to fight to the death. Because that's the only way they're getting to come back and have all the rewards. ATF never had any idea of that. Instead, all they know is they're completely outgunned. They got people dead.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
There is not a way in hell they're going to be able to storm into that building now and take these people. They need to pull out and somehow redeploy, figure out how to go about it differently. For the Branch Davidians, why the hell would you want to do that? We've got this final fight. It's here. On their end, this was the problem. They had at that time five people killed in this assault.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
There would be a sixth who would die trying to get into the building a couple of hours later. And a couple of them were dying horrible, lingering deaths, screaming to be put out of their misery. And they finally were. The Branch Davidians had thought that somehow, when this time came, it was going to be relatively painless. God was just going to lift their souls up.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Yes. And instead, here's screaming in agony. So that threw them off. Plus, Koresh had been hit during the firefight. And it looked like he might be dying. And so they were going to want whatever last words the lamb had to say. And finally, after two and a half hours, there was a sullen agreement on both sides to a ceasefire.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The Branch Davidians were sure that ATF was just going to come back probably that night. ATF thought they'd regroup and be sent back maybe in the morning. Neither one was right. It was just the beginning where both sides had thought maybe it was the end.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The FBI was called in the same night that ATF was driven away. And for the FBI, there was a certain amount of resentment. They were being called in to clean up somebody else's mess. Now there had been a similar sort of thing in Idaho called Ruby Ridge in October 1992.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Wenn ATF und die FBI eine weiße Militärin und seine Familie in ihrem Kabinett verabschiedeten, und es gab einen Schuss, und der Mannsweib wurde getötet, und es wurde wirklich dreckig, schlechte Publizität. Nun, in der Meinung der FBI, hat ATF dieses Ding von einem Ende nach dem anderen gespürt. Und sie wurden angerufen, und wenn es nicht gut endete, würden sie verurteilt werden.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Und unter dieser großen Menge von Agenten gab es zwei separate Gruppen. You have the negotiators. Let's just take whatever time we need. We're going to talk back and forth. We're going to get this worked out. And you have the tactical teams. Look, we got everybody. We've got tanks. We can go in there in 10 minutes. You know, we can control the whole thing.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
And during the siege, there was great tension between these two groups. It particularly grew just a few days into the siege when Koresh suddenly announced If he were allowed to make a tape that would be broadcast on national radio about the seven seals and what the Davidians believed, that once that was played, he and all his followers would come out and surrender. The FBI let him do that.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
And the tape he sent out was just a garbled mess. And clearly anybody objective who was listening would have said, who is this guy? He's nuts. Forget about the whole thing. But the FBI didn't care. They didn't care what he believed. They called it Bible Babble. What they did was they simply prepared, okay, we did our half, now the guy's going to come out. They didn't know two things.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The first thing they didn't know, and I confirmed this with Branch Davidian survivors, the Branch Davidians were going to come out concealing AR-15s and grenades in their clothing. Men, women and children. And when they got out, they were going to have one last glorious blast off for God.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
So that was what they were planning to do. And to Koresh and his followers, they weren't lying. The Bible taught them that sometimes you have to be a serpent to do the work of God. So yeah, they were going to fool these people, but they were God's chosen. That was what they were going to do. But Koresh at the last minute and He would say later, God had spoken to him and said, don't come out yet.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Maybe he thought God said that to him. Maybe he just didn't want to get shot up some more and die. But he reneged at the last minute. And to the tactical team among the FBI that proved he was just going to lie the whole time. That negotiating was a waste of time. And so it dragged on. And the world media came to wake up. What do they have to write about every day?
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Well, the Branch Davidians are in there. They're not going to be able to come out and talk. So they have to write about, why can't the United States government with all these agents and all these tanks do something? And so finally the FBI petitioned the Department of Justice, let us go in, let us get this over with. And there's some gas we can use that is non-lethal.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
It'll just get everybody out there. We're going to get this done.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The fire started because people were foolish on both sides. Mount Carmel itself was a fire trap. You've got this huge structure made out of junk wood. It's still cold. The Branch Davidians have put hay bales around the walls to try to serve as insulation. The government's cut off electricity. So the Branch Davidians have Coleman lanterns that they're using for light and for heat.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
And they've got all kinds of combustible gas stuff all around the building. They've also got their guns. The FBI promises the government, new Attorney General Janet Reno specifically, that we're going to fire non-combustible canisters of CS gas in there. The gas just burns and irritates. It doesn't fatally strike anybody. The people will have to come out.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Das Problem, das wir heute in Waco verstehen, ist das selbe Problem, das wir in 1993 in Waco hatten. Beide Seiten waren falsch. Es gab in der Tat einen Kult, der von jemandem war, der verbreitete Verbrechen verursacht hatte. Und sie waren ein Gefahr für das Publikum, wie auch für sich selbst. Es ist auch wahr, dass die Regierungsagenturen, ohne zu versuchen, zu verstehen, was diese Leute glaubten,
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
And we'll start putting it in at six in the morning. Shouldn't take that long. The Branch Davidians surrounded, seeing tanks come in. Once again, okay, so this is the big one. This is what we were expecting. As the canisters are fired in, the first ones, the problem is there's some parts of the compound, particularly part that's being built into that big pit. where the canisters are bouncing off.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
One of the tankers radios in, and this is caught on tapes, not for the public yet, but internal, that he wants to try different canisters, which are in fact combustible. This is about 6.10 a.m. and fires no more than two or three. This is lost in everything else that's happening. Meanwhile, they're mostly firing the Coke-can-sized canisters
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
that when they pop inside, and they do, that spreads the CS gas. And people are trying to tie, you know, bandanas over their faces. Little children are screaming in agony, and the Branch Davidians even had some gas masks, but they wouldn't fit children. Most of the guns and some of the foodstuffs and almost all the ammunition, millions of rounds that the Branch Davidians had stockpiled,
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
was in a little concrete room inside the main building. This isn't little wood slats like the outer rim. This is concrete. And that's where the mothers take the children in hopes that at least the canisters won't get in there. But the canisters are being lobbed in by tanks. And the tanks with the long gun arm out in front are smashing into the sides of Mount Carmel, knocking in parts of the wall.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
So there are holes you can lob the canisters through. And some of these canisters, because the concrete roof over the heads of those women and children who are trying to hide has been cracked open, are dropping in there. Jetzt stürzen die Branch Davidians innen herum. Es ist wie eine Maze mit all den kleinen Hallen. Sie versuchen, das Gas zu entfernen.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Sie versuchen, die Arme der Tanks nicht zu schießen, als sie durch die Wand kratzen. Und dann, ein paar Minuten vor Noon. Das hat sich für sechs Stunden gedauert. Plötzlich sieht jemand Flammen. Und danach gibt es drei Möglichkeiten. Das Erste ist, dass die FBI etwas ausgelagert hat, um das Gebäude aufzulösen. Sie konnten die Branch Davidians in irgendeinem anderen Weg auslösen.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Und hier ist die Regierung in einer krüllen, unvorstellbaren Gestaltung, christliche Männer, Frauen und Kinder lebendig zu bürgern, für kein anderes Verbrechen als dass sie Waffenhändler sind und ihre Rechte respektiert wollen. Das ist die erste Möglichkeit. Die zweite Möglichkeit ist, dass es ein Unfall ist. Somebody knocks over one of those Coleman lamps and the fire spreads from there.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
So, who knows what happened? All we know is that it burned. And we also know that nine people, nine adults managed to escape the inferno and come out. Their skin so burned that it's bubbling on their arms and hands as they're forced on their faces to the ground. But because the world media is there, all of us, you remember it, I remember it, we watch it happen. Und es ist schrecklich.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Und es muss jemandem schuld sein. Was natürlich, wo alles ab und zu passiert ist.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
And when the possibility for surprise was entirely lost, tried surprise anyway, both sides settled in and there was bound to be some kind of horrific ending. It just happened to take seven weeks. So people tend to buy into one side or the other without realizing both sides were guilty here.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The government came out intact in terms of people being killed on their side. But of course, they came out horribly in terms of public perception. The day after the event, about 65-70% of Americans polled believed that the government had acted responsibly. But less than six weeks later, well over half the public believes that the government has committed a monstrous act.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
That's because different facts start to come out, starting with the fact that even though the government had initially claimed it wasn't true. There were a few combustible shells used. Now the fact that we had proof these were used five and a half hours before the fire started made no difference to the conspiracy minded.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
If the government had lied about that, they must have lied about everything else.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Well, the first thing that surprised me that I found out when I started researching the book was Timothy McVeigh was outside Mount Carmel.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
For a couple of the days, he actually hawked anti-government T-shirts and bumper stickers.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
And he claimed two years later that Mount Carmel and vengeance for Waco was what drove him to do what he did. The fact that it's something we can prove. dass die Zahl der Militärgruppen in Amerika sich ständig erhöhte, wegen Waco. Wenn man sich heute die Militärgruppen anschaut, die so bekannt geworden sind, wird man sagen, dass Waco das Ort war, wo sie eigentlich begonnen haben.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Die Regierung machte dieses schreckliche Ding. Aber im Laufe meines Forschens stand mir eine Sache heraus, und ich würde sehr gerne diesen Punkt machen, wenn ich darf. Es gibt drei Organisationen, drei Gruppen, die zusammengekommen sind. Und bis heute wird die Mörderkontroverse weitergehen. Es gab die Branch Davidians, die ATF und die FBI.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
In allen drei Fällen kann man klar sehen, dass niemand die andere Seite verstanden hat. Es gab nie einen echten Versuch, zusammenzukommen, um etwas in Frieden zu bringen. Aber hier ist der kritische Punkt. Für die ATF und die FBI The best result for them, politically, publicly, just in terms of their budget if nothing else, would have been that this was resolved quickly and non-violently.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The only group whose agenda had to include death, had to include a fight and people dying, came from the Branch Davidians. And that is a fact.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Die Branchen der Davidier gehen bis in die frühen 1840er Jahre zurück in Nordostamerika. Es gab einen selbstgeklagten Propheten namens William Miller, der die Bibel gelesen hat, ein paar Kalkulationen seiner eigenen Erfindung gemacht hat und erklärte, dass Genesis endlich das Ende aller Dinge werden würde, das Ende der Tage.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Jesus kam zurück, wie er es in dem Buch der Revelation versprochen hat, und beurteilte die Quicken der Toten, irgendwann in 1844. He gave one date when it didn't quite work. He gave a second date that didn't quite work. But he'd already convinced hundreds of thousands of Americans that the Bible was the literal truth and this last book in the Bible was coming to pass.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
His followers, even when the end didn't come as he predicted, still thought he was correct. In general, he just misinterpreted the date. And one offshoot of what was called the Millerites was the Seventh-Day Adventists, which became one of the fastest growing religious organizations, faith organizations, in America and even part of the world.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
We know them today mainly as the people who say the Sabbath is Saturday and not Sunday. But it's also true that they preached, Jesus is coming, only the very faithful are going to survive. It's all there in the Bible, read it. One of the offshoots of the Seventh-Day Adventists, and this always happens when you have one extreme belief, then for some it's not extreme enough.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
You take it another step. And a washing machine salesman in Los Angeles decided that he understood the truth, that God was going to send his son and 144,000 angels to basically cleanse the world, choose the followers who are going to survive, So, this is Viktor Haltev. He was a Bulgarian immigrant, came over in 1930, right? Right, came to Los Angeles, sold washing machines to make his daily bread.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
and taught Sunday school for the Seventh-Day Adventists. But he decided that the Seventh-Day Adventists were not being strict enough. They were not following the Bible specifically. And so he and some hundred or so followers, looking for a place where they could go, because they were certain they were going to be among the chosen. They had to have a place. When Jesus came back,
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
When what they called the Death Angels started going around killing everybody who wasn't a real believer, the true believers, the 144,000 of the New Testament, had to have somewhere to gather. And they chose Waco, Texas, not because Waco was the second Garden of Eden, because you couldn't find land any cheaper in the United States and for good reason than outside Waco, Texas.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
They settled there and they called them Sie waren die Räume des Herrn. Sie waren die Räume.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Richtig, die Glaubwürdigen werden an der Basis von Carmel zusammenkommen. Aber seit die Glaubwürdigen für Victor Haudivs Follower nicht alle in Israel kommen werden, They simply established Mount Carmel in Waco. I mean, clearly that was the Lord's design, or at least what they believed.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Yeah, Vernon Howell, before he comes to what has evolved into the Branch Davidians at Mount Carmel in Waco, is basically incapable of leading a one-man parade. He is the ultimate Texas teenage loser. He's dropped out of school. He likes to hunt. He likes to read comic books and he likes to fix cars. Main thing is he's preoccupied with sex.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
He manages to impregnate a very young teenage girl, which is in his family tradition, because his mother was in the seventh grade when she got pregnant with him. That's broken up. He's broken hearted. He goes to live with his mom and becomes immersed in the Seventh-Day Adventist Church in East Texas and comes to believe that God is speaking to him. Not always, but that God has his hand on him.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Just like Victor Howdiff in Los Angeles generations before, young Vernon decides the Seventh-Day Adventists aren't being strict enough. He particularly believes that the Bible is being written about things that are happening today, not just way back in the past. And there must be some place, some religious group, where current modern day prophets lead.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Not the old folks in the Bible, but the ones who now are that version, that iteration. Mm-hmm. He hears about a group in Waco, about 120 miles south, led by a woman prophet named Lois Roden. And Lois Roden leads the Branch Davidians, the name they've taken now, because she claims to have had direct communication with God, that God has sent an angel to her. Wow. Wow.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
dass das Ende, wie es in der Revelation erzählt wird, sehr bald kommt. Und das wird der Gruppe sein, die irgendwie involviert ist.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
People come and go. In an odd sense, it's not unlike, and I'm not using this in religious terms, but in terms sociologically. As the old Manson family back in California, people drift in, Most of them drift back out. But a few remain and become hardcore. And in this case, you'd have maybe 120, 130 people.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
But you touch on the most important thing, the context we need to understand why they do what they do in 1993. And it is simply this. Everything they do, from the food they eat, to the time they get up, to the way they discipline their children, ist alles basiert auf der Interpretation der Bibel, was Gott ihnen sagt, was sie tun. Sie haben einen Term. Wir sind in der Botschaft.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Wer nicht glaubt, der ist nicht in der Botschaft. ist nicht einer der Erwachsenen. Das bedeutet, wenn Jesus zurückkehrt, und er wird jederzeit kommen, wenn du nicht in der Botschaft bist, bist du nicht einer der Menschen, die gerettet werden. Das bedeutet, du bist einer der Feinde. Du gehörst zu Babylon. Das ist die Meinung, die sie haben, und die Vernon komplett darin fällt.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Darf ich dir das beste Beispiel geben? Ich habe Mount Carmel-Survivoren interviewt. Und einem Mann und einer Frau glauben sie immer noch an David Koresh, Vernon Howe. Sie glauben immer noch, dass alles passieren wird. Und sie glauben immer noch, dass die Bibel ihnen sagt, was sie tun sollen.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Einer von ihnen hat mir gesagt, dass sie in Mount Carmel lebte, mit David Koresh und vier Kindern, ihren vier Söhnen. Eines Tages hat einer ihrer Söhne einen Grashopper getötet. Also hat sie ihn dem Grashopper gegessen. Warum? Weil in dem Buch von Leviticus, in der Bibel, es sagt, man kann ein lebendiges Ding nicht töten, außer es für Essen zu benutzen. Wow.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Sein Sohn hat ein lebendiges Ding getötet. Wenn er das Grashopper nicht gegessen hätte, war seine Seele ein Verlust. Wow. Weil er die Regel in der Bibel brechen würde. So stark glaubten sie. Mann.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
Und Vernon Wayne Howell wird David Koresh und bekommt Kontrolle. Das ist direkt, wie die Waffen involviert werden. Because he claims that he is taken up to heaven by an angel and there some truths are revealed to him.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The first is that he is the reincarnation, the new iteration of the Old Testament King Cyrus, who freed the Jews from Babylon way back when, rebuilt the temple in Jerusalem and in the New Testament is named as the only Gentile Messiah. oder anointed leader in the whole Old Testament.
American History Hit
Waco: A Cult, the FBI and a Fiery Ending
The name Cyrus in Hebrew, which is what the Branch Davidians considered to be the true biblical language, is pronounced Koresh. And so that's why Vernon Wayne Howell had to take the name Koresh, because he was Cyrus, and he took the first name David, because when Jesus returns, the book of Revelation tells us, he'll sit on the throne of David. Das ist David Koresh. Wow. Wow.