Jeremy Bowen

But that was a situation very much where the system didn't work. And more recently, of course, the war in Gaza has been, it's looking very much to be a textbook case in the way that international laws have been violated by all parties.

International laws have been quite widely broken, especially by the most powerful countries in the world, repeatedly since the Second World War. And the criticism of the idea of a rules-based international order is that they're Western rules. And they're Western rules which are normally applied to...

Se on hyvin ei-perfeettinen. Mutta luulen, että mitä muuttuu nyt, on se, että Donald Trump ei edes anna lippusarvoa. Se on kaikki tärkeä näkymätön, että haluaisin kaivaa se kaikki pois.

for alleged crimes committed in Gaza and on October the 7th, the International Court of Justice has attempted to intervene as well. What would be your response to that? I think those are all fair points. There's no doubt about it. I think that what these international rules over the years, international humanitarian law, war crimes laws, the Geneva Conventions, the UN Charter, all those sorts of things, they provide a template against which you can measure the severity of a story.

It's not simply saying, well, this is awful, all these people are dying, but getting to something a little bit more forensic, where you can say, for example, well, you shouldn't blow up hospitals, but if someone sets up a firing position on the top of the hospital, then you're perfectly entitled to

Se on tavallaan se, että se on yksi asia, joka on yksi asia.

Yksi syy, miksi ajattelen, että ajatukset tulevat takaisin 19-luvun lopuksi, jolloin olivat influenssia, niin paljon, että se ei toimi nykymaailmassa, koska maailma on muuttunut. Kun eurooppalaiset maat, franssit ja britsit, kärsivät Afrikasta ja eri paikoista maailmaa yhdessä, he käyivät maissa, jotka eivät ollut kehittyneet,

If there were elites, they were probably kings and people who had inherited their massive wealth. The vast majority of people lived very hard lives and weren't very well educated, if at all. Things are massively different now. You look at the incredible transformations in India. That's one good example.

India was the jewel in the crown of the British Empire. Now India is a rising power with more than a billion people. And undoubtedly is going to be a stronger and bigger power as it continues to develop. And they don't want to be part of anyone's sphere of influence. They want to have their own sphere of influence. The world has changed so much that it's going to be very difficult for a couple of strong leaders to impose their will on everybody.

Olet johtanut, Jeremy, Euroopasta, ja olen erityisen kiinnostunut, että sinut ja Tristan ovat johtaneet Lontoon, eikä olemme puhuneet enää siitä, miten Eurooppa sopii tähän. Se on siksi, että Eurooppa tuntee, että olemme ylipäänsä. Että katsomme asioita, joita emme voi kontroloida enää. Vastuullisuudessa ne ovat olleet vahvistuneet amerikkalaisista pitkän aikaa. Amerikkalaiset ovat paljastaneet rahaa, koska he tuntevat, että se on heidän intressinsä.

Trump doesn't feel it's in the US interest or his interest, so he doesn't want to pay the money. That's one thing that has changed, because that consensus that American security meant European security has gone. Where does it all go for you, Jeremy? Asma and I have had quite animated conversations about whether it's a given that this ends in more chaos or maybe stability. What's your take? Well, I hate to say it. I'm on the chaos side.

Having been a foreign correspondent for the BBC for most of my adult life, and I have been to many, many wars as a reporter, and seen hopes risen and hopes dashed, I think this is a really worrying time. I think we are absolutely right to worry about the stability of the world. Look at...

The way the world is, the number of places that are on fire, the number of places where conflicts aren't just not being resolved, they're getting worse. I've spent a lot of time over the years with the Arab-Israeli conflict. It's in a terribly dangerous place right now. None of this stuff is going to end well. And I don't see where...

Kiitos.

Some degree of strategic economic military stability between them. And maybe the answer is that the Americans say, look, this is our half of the world and we'll try and do what we can here. And that is your half of the world. Maybe that's an answer. But China's a rising power. It's getting stronger. And...

America is still massively powerful militarily and economically, but history says that empires and superpowers don't last forever. I look with great interest on the next decade or two, and some fair degree of trepidation, because I think the danger is that little crises can become big crises, and suddenly...

Things start slipping out of control. One of the things that would stop, you'd hope, things slipping out of control is some kind of rules-based system. A safety net. If you like, little interrupters along the way. People like using this phrase guardrails these days. I don't quite know what it means. But certainly if there's a shape of rules and customs that people at least...

can be held to account if they don't follow them. In a way you know where you are. But if it's quite a chaotic, might is right atmosphere happening in the world, well, it guarantees a great deal of work for people like me, but frankly, a lot of worry for anyone who wants to live a peaceful life.

It's going to be complex at the very least.

Here's an example.