Jesse Michels

I think, you know, exploring this stuff changes you as well.

And that's maybe the dirty little secret because you always in science want to separate the observer from the observed.

I think that might collapse as a paradigm.

And that's why I see this whole thing as a paradigm shift, kind of epistemologically, not just a scientific paradigm shift.

Because...

In science, you're supposed to be this like perfectly, this perfect measurement sensor.

Like you're almost supposed to remove the human.

And it's only supposed to be like these, you know, like an electron microscope that detected the thing or radar or whatever.

And you can't trust your eyes as a human.

And I think a lot of this stuff involves actually systematically exploring the human psyche and just human behavior.

often one of one phenomenological experience and not discarding that.

And I think a new scientific model will have to incorporate that, a la Rudolf Steiner, who talks about spiritual science, where inner phenomena are just as valid as outer phenomena.

And I think the interesting thing about studying a lot of the UFO stuff is you're really out of your depth no matter what.

And I think if you're not admitting that, then you're kind of this, like, grandstanding, you know, off and chill in the subject.

And when you are so out of your depth and you're sort of, you know, really in the dark, you're in sort of Plato's cave or whatever...

you really have to audit yourself and you have to audit your own biases and you have to become, you can't make these bold claims.

Like the second you make a bold claim, like,

you know, like somebody debunks a little thing and you have to be like, okay, cool.

Like I'll follow the evidence there.

And so I do think that's this extremely important part of the whole topic is like your own growth process as you kind of look into and discover this stuff.