Joanna Robinson

Well, I think it's impossible to separate the two in the sense that the Nolan version of a Batman movie is a Nolan movie, ultimately.

Which is just another version of what you're saying, I think.

And the question of how well that works for hardcore Batman fans is, I guess... I mean, I think a lot of people love this trilogy and the respective ranking of where...

rises or begins goes in the 2-3 slot, because I think for everybody, Dark Knight is number one, right?

That's probably the debate is at 2-3.

I don't know.

I think the things that Nolan is interested in in Batman and Bruce and Gotham and the relationship between Batman and the Joker or Batman and Bane...

he's picking the aspects of a Batman story that are part of the core Batman text, right?

And I think fit in a version of a Batman story, but he's picking the ones that are interesting to him.

Like the things we've been tracking across the whole, you know, representation of the filmography, right?

Like the dark mirrors, the measuring stick men, the way that you have a sense of like what duty you owe to a place or what a place says about you.

You know, a scene, like, one of our categories is the great man, like, obsession, right?

And there have been a couple movies that we removed that from, but none of the Batman ones.

None of the Batman ones.

And so, like, that's something that is a core text for Nolan and Bruce as a character, and Batman as a symbol, I think really unlocks.

So I think he's just identifying the aspects of the Batman canon that most interest him specifically.

Even, like, a conversation in this film in Rises, like the one between Blake and Gordon...

You know, like, I hope one day when you have that moment, like, you have a friend like I did, right?

The idea that the structure of systems and rules will fail you.

Like, that's part of... That's an insomnia, that same idea, way back when, well before Batman.