Jodi Kantor

The one that's not and that's scarier, and you alluded to this in your question, is about the way our conversation about fact is just breaking apart.

I'll tell you one of my biggest worries.

which is that what's essentially a post-Watergate formula of investigative journalism could stop working as well as it worked.

Investigative journalism in our lifetimes has basically meant there's some terrible problem.

That's A. It is responsibly and convincingly documented by a journalist.

That's step B.

Step C, there's a powerful public reaction when you publish.

Step D, some grown-up decides to do something about it.

Congress or the board of a company or regulators or litigation ensues.

Well, A, I mean, we know there's like no end of problems to report on, right?

Like A is in strong shape, unfortunately.

B, journalists are still doing their jobs all over the country.

Like the picture is not good in terms of what's happened to journalistic institutions, but we're still out there.

We're still fighting.

We have ProPublica.

We have the Wall Street Journal.

We have, you know, lots of really interesting startups in addition to the Times, right?

C, the public believes us.

It's getting harder, right?

It's getting really harder.