John Lisle

There's just no way around it.

But at the same time, how can I know that the secrets they're keeping is because it's in my interest or it's because it's in their interest?

Oh, 100%.

I haven't heard of that.

Wow, yeah.

When did that happen?

I hadn't heard of that.

He died in 86.

And one thing crazy just about not only that, but MKUltra in general, it's against the CIA's charter to operate within the United States.

That should be a deal-ender right there for whatever they're doing within the United States.

It's against the charter.

Yep.

I mean, there's no more discussion.

That's illegal.

I've mentioned external oversight, like Congress checking the executive.

But at the same time, one of the big problems with MKUltra or one of the problems that led to MKUltra without people even within the CIA questioning it, there are people in the CIA who know about it.

Actually, not that many because it's very heavily compartmentalized, but some people still do know about it.

So one of the questions I was asking myself throughout this book.

Why aren't the people who are in the CIA and know about MKUltra, why aren't they speaking up?

Why don't they, say, pull Sidney Gottlieb aside and just have a conversation with him?