John Lisle

Do you think what you're doing here is all right?

I think they're terrified about their career.

That's exactly the thing.

There's a specific person within the CIA during this time.

That's his job, the inspector general.

So the inspector general within the CIA, his job is to make sure there's nothing that goes against the CIA's charter or internal regulations or the U.S.

law.

But I found an interview that he did later.

There's this guy named Lyman Kirkpatrick.

He was the inspector general during the 1950s when this was going on.

And he did an investigation into MKUltra in 1957 as it was going on.

And it continued on after that.

And so one of the things he talks about is why isn't the case that you tried?

Why didn't you try to shut this down?

Like you obviously knew this was illegal.

In fact.

In 1963, a different CIA inspector general named John Earman, he did a separate investigation into MKUltra, and his report that I quote in this book specifically says, what I think they're doing is, quote, illegal and unethical.

Those are his terms, and he's the inspector general.

Yet in this later interview, Lyman Kirkpatrick talks about, why didn't you tell them to stop?

Why didn't you put an end to this?