John R. Miles

She's an attorney on prison reform and specifically what she is trying to look at is mass incarceration and how it is not only flooding the system with too many inmates, but we keep the inmates in far too long for many of the things that they do.

And this is something that you tackle in the book, but you tackle it through another country who has looked at this and seen that there is a way to completely rethink in a creative manner about how do you take these inmates and reform them in a really amazing way.

So I was hoping you could walk us through that because I thought this was a great example of how you reform a large system

But specifically, how does the fail successfully come into play here in Norway?

And I'm going to take it from Norway to a movie.

So let's talk Shawshank Redemption for a second.

There we go.

When I think about that and the Morgan Freeman character Red, he's, so here's a guy who's in for killing someone when he was 18 years old.

And he keeps going up for these hearings so that he could go back into the general populace.

And every time he gets denied.

until he finally says, I wish I could go back and tell that 18 year old how stupid he was.

And oftentimes a lot of these, it's happening to young males over indexed, I think over female, the research I've looked at.

But if you look at what Tim Robbins, the other character in the movie did is he was trying to create a library.

He was trying to create

different ways to educate the populace at Shawshank because he saw that was the best way to rehabilitate.

Why do you think that has been such a thing in the states that we're not focused on?

and looking at it in a different way.

If we are having decades and decades of mass incarceration increasing and we have repeat offenders time and time again, then ultimately the data is telling us something.

And if you keep, where I want to go with this is if you keep treating the data in the same way and you keep getting the same answers and they keep getting worse, then you got to change

the way that you're looking at the inputs that are causing the data to be where they are.