John R. Miles

And then he says suffering.

But I also believe there could be a fourth, which is something you go into in the book.

Dacher Keltner was the first time I heard this, which is moral beauty.

Do you think that fourth is a way that you can find meaning in life?

I think Frankl, when he was talking about suffering, he always referred to it as a suffering you can't avoid.

Meaning if you're in a point of suffering and you can find a way out of it, then do so.

But if you find yourself with a life threatening condition or you're going through the death of a loved one or some other type of suffering, it's really seeing a path through that that takes you through it, which I think is really an important clarification.

Arthur, in my first book, I was trying to describe the unconscious state that I think so many people are drifting through life as their approach to life.

And I often hear people use the word, people are living on autopilot.

And I always think it's the wrong analogy because when you put the plane on autopilot, it's typically going in the direction you want it to go.

And I described it as too many of us are living like we're a pinball in the game instead of playing the game.

I don't know if you agree with that analogy, but I think modern life is crowding out, meaning in some ways,

through actively rewarding behaviors that strip significance away.

And we're like that pinball and it's like micro choice by micro choice, our significance and our meaning happens over time.

Do you agree with that?

I've been working my way through Yuval's most recent book on information networks, and it's been interesting to hear what he's writing about.

But where I'm going with this is I was recently going through this section where he was talking about modern day technologies and the algorithms that are underneath them.

and how they're completely disrupting the way that information used to flow because they're manipulating it.

Right.

And you bring this concept of doom loop where my interpretation of a doom loop is technology is soothing our meaninglessness while deepening it at the same time.