Jonathan Swan

Mm-hmm.

Well, it's actually a hard question to answer because as a reporter, all you can go by is what he's saying privately to people. And Trump, in these moments of crisis, doesn't actually always articulate what he's really thinking. So what he's been saying...

Well, it's actually a hard question to answer because as a reporter, all you can go by is what he's saying privately to people. And Trump, in these moments of crisis, doesn't actually always articulate what he's really thinking. So what he's been saying...

when people call him, as happened over the weekend, I've spoken to a few people who spoke to him privately over the weekend, is in these conversations, he's boasting. He's saying, everyone's calling me. They're all kissing my ass. They all want to do deals. They're begging me. You know, he's in that kind of a mode. To do tariff deals.

when people call him, as happened over the weekend, I've spoken to a few people who spoke to him privately over the weekend, is in these conversations, he's boasting. He's saying, everyone's calling me. They're all kissing my ass. They all want to do deals. They're begging me. You know, he's in that kind of a mode. To do tariff deals.

Yes, because I put out these tariffs, everyone's coming to beg, which is a position he loves to be in. Now, that leads you to a second question, which is, okay, so... is the goal then to do a whole series of deals that will then actually maybe end up creating a freer trading market. Well, then, you know, you ask that question of people around him and they say, well, no, not really.

Yes, because I put out these tariffs, everyone's coming to beg, which is a position he loves to be in. Now, that leads you to a second question, which is, okay, so... is the goal then to do a whole series of deals that will then actually maybe end up creating a freer trading market. Well, then, you know, you ask that question of people around him and they say, well, no, not really.

He might do some deals, but actually, no, he's really... quite set on this idea of eliminating trade deficits and reshoring manufacturing and building things here in America. So you have these two things running into each other. One problem that some of his advisors have, I would say most of his advisors have if they're being honest, is

He might do some deals, but actually, no, he's really... quite set on this idea of eliminating trade deficits and reshoring manufacturing and building things here in America. So you have these two things running into each other. One problem that some of his advisors have, I would say most of his advisors have if they're being honest, is

get criticized a lot for, well, your messaging is so all over the place. It's like, yeah, no kidding. Because the man in charge... His messaging is all over the place. Yeah, from one minute to the other. It's like, you know, he's in deal-making mode and then he's in, no, this is an economic revolution and you need to hang tough. You're getting these competing messengers...

get criticized a lot for, well, your messaging is so all over the place. It's like, yeah, no kidding. Because the man in charge... His messaging is all over the place. Yeah, from one minute to the other. It's like, you know, he's in deal-making mode and then he's in, no, this is an economic revolution and you need to hang tough. You're getting these competing messengers...

I will say it's not just reporters who've been surprised. It's not just pundits that have been surprised or his donors. But some of his advisors, I think, were still of the mindset that this would be term one Trump. And term one Trump talked a really big game on tariffs. But actually, when the market started to wobble, he backed off and he was much the stock market operated as a check.

I will say it's not just reporters who've been surprised. It's not just pundits that have been surprised or his donors. But some of his advisors, I think, were still of the mindset that this would be term one Trump. And term one Trump talked a really big game on tariffs. But actually, when the market started to wobble, he backed off and he was much the stock market operated as a check.

on him in the first term. You've talked about that in the past. Yeah, and it really isn't right now. And I think that's freaked a lot of people out because they had a certain set of assumptions about Donald Trump, and those assumptions are now being defied.

on him in the first term. You've talked about that in the past. Yeah, and it really isn't right now. And I think that's freaked a lot of people out because they had a certain set of assumptions about Donald Trump, and those assumptions are now being defied.

There's, like, a few different theories. One is he's been talking about tariffs for 40 years. Right. And in his first term, he had to run for re-election. I remember talking to some of his economic aides in the first term and people on the Hill, and Trump would say to them... don't worry, guys, year five will tackle the debt.

There's, like, a few different theories. One is he's been talking about tariffs for 40 years. Right. And in his first term, he had to run for re-election. I remember talking to some of his economic aides in the first term and people on the Hill, and Trump would say to them... don't worry, guys, year five will tackle the debt.

But we can't do anything with the debt before year five because, you know, he's got to run for re-election, didn't want to do anything to upset things. He's not running for re-election anymore. So there is a theory that, well, he feels somewhat liberated by that and he can do what he thinks is the right thing to do and move forward and deal with the consequences.

But we can't do anything with the debt before year five because, you know, he's got to run for re-election, didn't want to do anything to upset things. He's not running for re-election anymore. So there is a theory that, well, he feels somewhat liberated by that and he can do what he thinks is the right thing to do and move forward and deal with the consequences.

I think a secondary theory, which is empirically true, is he doesn't have... as many advisors around him who are making strong arguments to the contrary. In term one, he had Gary Cohn, Stephen Mnuchin, really some very anti-tariff figures around him on his economic team. And you don't have the same dynamic here.