Ken Lawson

And keep in mind, too, back in the late 90s, early 2000s, victims of crimes were getting more and more power to express their opinions on plea bargains. So it used to be, you know, when I first started practicing, most states didn't ignore victims, but a lot of prosecutors would ignore just...

And keep in mind, too, back in the late 90s, early 2000s, victims of crimes were getting more and more power to express their opinions on plea bargains. So it used to be, you know, when I first started practicing, most states didn't ignore victims, but a lot of prosecutors would ignore just...

Here, you would have to get the approval of the Ireland family to say, I'm going to give this man probation. Is that OK with you? Now, if I'm Mr. Ireland, if he's going to confess, I want the guy whose DNA this is. So if he wants freedom, if he didn't want to spend one hour in prison for a murder and a rape of my daughter, I would go along with that plea.

Here, you would have to get the approval of the Ireland family to say, I'm going to give this man probation. Is that OK with you? Now, if I'm Mr. Ireland, if he's going to confess, I want the guy whose DNA this is. So if he wants freedom, if he didn't want to spend one hour in prison for a murder and a rape of my daughter, I would go along with that plea.

But I want to know whose DNA was left on that gurney that my daughter's body was on. I want to know whose DNA was in her panties. that was laying out there bloody, or ain't no deal.

But I want to know whose DNA was left on that gurney that my daughter's body was on. I want to know whose DNA was in her panties. that was laying out there bloody, or ain't no deal.

Well, yeah, I think when you work on these cases, people can be convicted quickly in our system. And then it's just so hard to unchange the wrongful conviction. I mean, you see it all the time with cases going to the Supreme Court on people on death row and stuff like that and still losing.

Well, yeah, I think when you work on these cases, people can be convicted quickly in our system. And then it's just so hard to unchange the wrongful conviction. I mean, you see it all the time with cases going to the Supreme Court on people on death row and stuff like that and still losing.

And so I think when we finally got the DNA evidence in, when DNA finally reached a point to where they could separate the blood on the Jimmy Zee T-shirt, and also determine sweat DNA, wearer DNA, that didn't exist back when this trial started. And all of that showed that Frank Pauline did not wear that shirt at all. And neither did the other two defendants. No DNA whatsoever. Gave us hope.

And so I think when we finally got the DNA evidence in, when DNA finally reached a point to where they could separate the blood on the Jimmy Zee T-shirt, and also determine sweat DNA, wearer DNA, that didn't exist back when this trial started. And all of that showed that Frank Pauline did not wear that shirt at all. And neither did the other two defendants. No DNA whatsoever. Gave us hope.

Both, both crime scenes, right? It's gone. That whole vacation land, everything.

Both, both crime scenes, right? It's gone. That whole vacation land, everything.

The next question was, are we going to get a judge that's going to listen? Because there's still a lot of people here who believe, you know, that Ian and the two other defendants are guilty. And that comes from being so, for lack of a better word, brainwashed. You know, during all the years up to the trial and stuff like that, that these guys are thugs.

The next question was, are we going to get a judge that's going to listen? Because there's still a lot of people here who believe, you know, that Ian and the two other defendants are guilty. And that comes from being so, for lack of a better word, brainwashed. You know, during all the years up to the trial and stuff like that, that these guys are thugs.

You don't know who the unknown male is, and then think about the people that are actually innocent who have no DNA evidence left in their case. It's either been destroyed or it's never taken, and they never get out. You know, Ian and others like him have been blessed enough to say, you know what, the Jimmy Zee t-shirt was still available to be tested.

You don't know who the unknown male is, and then think about the people that are actually innocent who have no DNA evidence left in their case. It's either been destroyed or it's never taken, and they never get out. You know, Ian and others like him have been blessed enough to say, you know what, the Jimmy Zee t-shirt was still available to be tested.

I got on the case in 2010 and been with it ever since. So just, you've been waiting on this day, you know, and you're just hoping that, you know, there's no surprises, nothing goes wrong. And we happen to have a very, very good judge who also understood a lot of different things. Like he really understood the tire tread evidence. I guess he tinkers with cars and stuff like that.

I got on the case in 2010 and been with it ever since. So just, you've been waiting on this day, you know, and you're just hoping that, you know, there's no surprises, nothing goes wrong. And we happen to have a very, very good judge who also understood a lot of different things. Like he really understood the tire tread evidence. I guess he tinkers with cars and stuff like that.

So, I mean, it was just clear to him that there's no way this could have been a Volkswagen.

So, I mean, it was just clear to him that there's no way this could have been a Volkswagen.