Kit Bennett

With the nuclear thing?

The politicians operated at two levels.

Men as smart as David Lange, for example, operated at two levels.

So they knew that the intelligence services were doing what they were doing and expected you to do what they were doing.

They were expected that our liaison would remain strong, but they had a political card to play as well.

So, you know, David Lange was quite close with directors of the service.

I mean, as were all ministers, there is a kind of a pragmatic side to them, but they're not going to ever reveal that.

It's critically important.

And much the same as countries cooperate, all we ever see and hear is the politicians.

But below that, you know, all the links between defence, for example, and other Five Eyes partners, other allies and things, these run deep.

And that's what I think.

Everyone's hunkering down and waiting for the madness to end so we can go back to having grown-ups in the room.

And I'm sure that's what's happening.

I'm sure that those ties are strong, if not stronger than when I was there.

Well, I hope I'm right.

Yes.

There is a deep state.

He's absolutely correct it's a deep state, but it's not a malevolent thing.

It's the thing that keeps the country going.

It makes sure that we have hospitals at work and the roads are repaired and all of those things.