Luke Tryl

So, you know, there's a lot going on here when we get into the debate about nationalism and the constitution that is nuanced.

And I think the immigration debate feeds into the nationalism debate.

And also just a reminder to election cast listeners, John Swinney's position for the SNP is that a majority for the SNP in the Scottish Parliament would be his trigger for asking for another referendum, a referendum he knows that it would be denied him.

But it's an SNP majority, not just a pro-independence majority, including other parties.

He's quite specific.

Adam, I asked John Swinney about this this morning and I said to him, you're a Democrat, right?

If there's a pro-independence majority in the parliament comprised of you and the Greens, is that not a mandate for a referendum?

And he danced around and eventually said, but if there's a pro-independence majority as a mandate, he said, of course, it's a mandate.

But his argument is it would not be an effective mandate that the only thing that has ever delivered a referendum has been an SNP mandate on its own.

Now, you can have an argument about surely that was because it's the first time it happened.

And David Cameron agreed as the UK Conservative prime minister.

And it had to be agreed in the Supreme Court since then, as Alex is hinting at.

In fact, you were hinting at, Adam, sorry, both of you.

The Supreme Court has said, look, this is not in the gift of Holyrood.

It's a Westminster power.

It needs to have agreement for it to happen.

John Swinney nonetheless says there could be a referendum by 2028.

It should be pointed out that's the latest in a very, very long list of dates that the SNP have given over the years for the next independence referendum.

Yeah, in theory we've had about 10 by now.

Have they all gone ahead?