Maggie Haberman

Yeah, that's correct. Look, Trump believes and he has in some cases reason to believe that people working within his government, career bureaucrats in his first term were working against his agenda. Right. Not just flagging concerns, but in other cases, actively trying to stop him from implementing certain policies that he had campaigned on and wanted. And he is the president.

Yeah, that's correct. Look, Trump believes and he has in some cases reason to believe that people working within his government, career bureaucrats in his first term were working against his agenda. Right. Not just flagging concerns, but in other cases, actively trying to stop him from implementing certain policies that he had campaigned on and wanted. And he is the president.

He is able to do that. That's different than this, which is we don't want any hint of independence or independent thinking or you're at suspicion because you may have said X, Y, Z. This is just something totally different. And, you know, we talked about McCarthy earlier. McCarthy's protege was Roy Cohn and Roy Cohn, the fixer and lawyer, was Donald Trump's mentor.

He is able to do that. That's different than this, which is we don't want any hint of independence or independent thinking or you're at suspicion because you may have said X, Y, Z. This is just something totally different. And, you know, we talked about McCarthy earlier. McCarthy's protege was Roy Cohn and Roy Cohn, the fixer and lawyer, was Donald Trump's mentor.

Not just ferret them out, but make them afraid of what might happen to them if they don't go along with what he wants.

Not just ferret them out, but make them afraid of what might happen to them if they don't go along with what he wants.

I think Trump was well aware of what he was doing. I know based on reporting that we have all done that there was extensive conversation within his world about what the options were for releasing various people. There were at least two executive orders drafted as to what types of pardon therapy there was a discussion about.

I think Trump was well aware of what he was doing. I know based on reporting that we have all done that there was extensive conversation within his world about what the options were for releasing various people. There were at least two executive orders drafted as to what types of pardon therapy there was a discussion about.

Do you exclude the people who were convicted of seditious conspiracy, for instance? Trump's team is well aware that there were people who were convicted or caught on video beating up police officers. Trump himself had said during the campaign, as a way of avoiding getting pinned down on this, that he was going to go on a case-by-case basis. And I don't think he was ever convicted.

Do you exclude the people who were convicted of seditious conspiracy, for instance? Trump's team is well aware that there were people who were convicted or caught on video beating up police officers. Trump himself had said during the campaign, as a way of avoiding getting pinned down on this, that he was going to go on a case-by-case basis. And I don't think he was ever convicted.

I think that he went in the direction that he always wanted to go in. Could he recite chapter and verse what everybody was convicted of? No. But I think he has pretty clear understanding of the depth of the criminality described.

I think that he went in the direction that he always wanted to go in. Could he recite chapter and verse what everybody was convicted of? No. But I think he has pretty clear understanding of the depth of the criminality described.

Can I just make one point, though? Please, Maggie. Trump is clearly betting because that is how it has played out almost every single time that he has been warned that something he was going to do was going to have adverse consequences for himself. He is betting that he can wait it out and the bad publicity will go away.

Can I just make one point, though? Please, Maggie. Trump is clearly betting because that is how it has played out almost every single time that he has been warned that something he was going to do was going to have adverse consequences for himself. He is betting that he can wait it out and the bad publicity will go away.

And I have to say that so far, based on the pretty muted reaction that I'm seeing, including from Republican lawmakers who had not just predicted that he wasn't going to do this, but in many cases had to run for their safety on January 6th, have said almost nothing. And so he tends to bet that public opinion will shift or change or at least not revolt against him. And

And I have to say that so far, based on the pretty muted reaction that I'm seeing, including from Republican lawmakers who had not just predicted that he wasn't going to do this, but in many cases had to run for their safety on January 6th, have said almost nothing. And so he tends to bet that public opinion will shift or change or at least not revolt against him. And

That's proven true over the last four years.

That's proven true over the last four years.

Yes, and they have already. This is not new. They did in the previous Congress, too. But this is going to be, I think, a different level of this than what we have heard before. Look, Michael, we know that Trump was very upset that President Biden issued preemptive pardons to people who worked on the House Select Committee investigating the lead up to January 6th and the day itself.

Yes, and they have already. This is not new. They did in the previous Congress, too. But this is going to be, I think, a different level of this than what we have heard before. Look, Michael, we know that Trump was very upset that President Biden issued preemptive pardons to people who worked on the House Select Committee investigating the lead up to January 6th and the day itself.