Margaret Atwood
speaker
143 appearances
2 recordings
2 series
first heard May 2025
last heard 9 Mar
Margaret Atwood’s voice in public audio — every appearance, attributed to the second.
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recordings per month · last 12 monthsRecordings per month over the last 12 months — 1 in all, peaking in Mar 2026 with 1.
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Good luck with Roald Dahl.
You're just really going to have to replace the whole book if you want things to be nice.
But this started a long time ago.
It was the Disneyfication of fairy tales.
What do I think of it?
I'm with Chaucer, who said, if you don't like this tale, turn over the page and read something else.
The Ezra Klein Show · Best Of: Margaret Atwood on American Myths and Authoritarianism · 9 May 2025
podcast
Oh. Well, people have had a lot of theories about that. So let's say that once we had a language that included a past and a present and a future, once we could think about what had happened and transfer information to people about what might therefore happen, we were going to be telling stories.
So I think the stories, if you go way back, the stories that start being told are partly about how to do stuff. like how to hunt the gazelle, and precautions that you might take around that. So I think stories were originally, or the reason they persisted, because of course there must have been a positive for stories, was to teach people so they didn't have to do it by trial and error.
So Uncle Alf got eaten by a crocodile right there. Maybe better not go swimming there. So you don't have to try for yourself to see if there might be a crocodile there. I'm telling you this story. And it didn't end well, so don't do that. The other thing we did when we started with the complicated language was we started believing in things that might not necessarily be visible.
And I think we did that partly to... Make us feel we are getting a little help here. So it's raining too much. What can we do about that? Let's talk to the rain god.
oh yeah, you can make up really destructive things and use them in an instigated and malicious way for your own ends. And that's the other thing that we really know about stories and going back as far as we can with the written record, among other things, those are the kinds of stories we find. So why were people so horrified by Odysseus? He made up these lies. He made up stories.
He made up ruses. He made up deceptions. He's tricky. So we are a species that deceives. Other species deceive too, but we do it more elaborately and we do it with stories. Other animals go in for camouflage and deception, but we were able to go in for camouflage and deception using words.
And we can, for instance, make up false stories about our enemies to get other people to dislike them and turn against them. And if you go into the history of propaganda in wartime, you will find a lot of clever inventions about stuff that wasn't true done for the purposes of deceiving. So we are a species that deceives. Other species deceive too.
But we do it more elaborately and we do it with stories.
Oh, well now, let me see what kind of thing you might like. I think you might like a story about what a good person you are. You're a good person, Ezra. Do you want to do the right thing? Sure you do, I can tell. Well, you can really help out humankind. So all you have to do is sacrifice 17 children at the full of the moon. And you're going to do that, aren't you, Ezra?
Because you're a good person and you want to help. I think most people want to be good. And they want to help. I don't take a really cynical view of human nature that way. I think we do want to be good. We do want to help. And so a really conniving person will pitch to that side of us rather than saying just let's rob a bank and make a million dollars.
You know, I think you would say no to the bank robbery, Ezra. Because it's not helpful. You might say yes to it if we said, let's rob a bank and use the million dollars to help humankind and advance equality. You might do that. Yeah?
Supposing it was a foolproof plan, you might do it then, but only if it were for the greater good. So I think we're more likely to be sucked into doing stuff by people manipulating our good side than by people appealing to our greed and power-hungerness, although there are enough of us who are interested in the greed and power-hungerness, so it's a motif.
Well, stories by their very nature have central characters, unless they're history stories dealing just with statistics. But we know that we're much more likely to be able to remember a story that is about a person or people, not one that is just about numbers, unless we make the numbers themselves into actors in the story. I'm going to tell you a story about the number nine, a very heroic number.
I can relate. Yeah, so you make the numbers into sort of entities, and then we can be interested in them. But if they're just numbers, not so much. We didn't develop math until pretty late in our human history, whereas we developed language and music very, very early. So stories come naturally to small kids. You know this yourself. So this happens, then this happens, and then this happens.
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