Mariana Mazzucato

And yet only one of the vaccines, the one that was the collaboration between Oxford University and AstraZeneca, had that kind of conditionality

about what good looks like at the start in terms of how they collaborated.

So it was the publicly financed researchers, Oxford is a state school, that put that as a condition with their relationship with AstraZeneca, that they would share the knowledge, that they would join the patent pool, keep costs and prices low.

So more of that

This is the issue, right?

So this money that's being used to pay these very large salaries that you're talking about, it's very important to recognize that that didn't come about because of early on this amazing kind of entrepreneurship and all the knowledge was in these companies.

They gathered that knowledge.

Now they're using it.

Of course, they're pushing the frontier.

Of course, they're doing research.

But that idea of also making sure that companies are not earning in excess, right?

So why did the public purse not benefit?

in those early days?

Why are they evading so much tax?

I mean, literally in so many countries paying almost no tax, you know, also labor exploitation and the case of Amazon, you know, you don't hear it from me.

You hear it from all sorts of different investigations, even during COVID, by the way, that they wouldn't even put the ambulances apparently outside the warehouse.

I don't know.

I've read that.

I'm not sure if it's true, but anyway, the point is that there, you know, what does a good company look like and how does that then affect

the returns that they're earning and what is a just return versus these excess returns that now are being used to, you know, higher end.