Mariana Mazzucato

How do they measure what they call public value?

What is public value?

So even having, you know, comparison learning between, say, a public bank, the BBC, a government digital agency on what it means to crowd in or crowd out the private sector, what it means to shape markets, not fix them.

What does it mean to have a culture of experimentation versus this?

huge risk averseness that, as we said before, is a cause for the consultification.

So I think a lot about that.

But it's not, you know, there's so much instability, obviously, also in the private sector.

So there is a bit of a myth that it's all unstable in the public sector because of electoral turnover.

We can't shape these bureaucracies to be creative bureaucracies, resilient bureaucracies.

They don't have to be vertical and so inertial.

But the other point I think that's sort of stemming, I think in your question, tell me if this is not related, is literally winning the elections.

What are we learning globally?

You know, why is it that Biden, whose economic policies were actually quite successful in the red states, at least starting to be quite successful?

Why in those states did he not win?

And I think there's something going on in a lot of countries, definitely also in Italy and the UK, where people who have been

Let's just use the concept left behind on terms of the economic benefits, at least in the past.

Even when new economic policies work, that's not enough if people don't feel valued, if they don't have their dignity back, if they continue to feel condescended upon.

So one of the really cool things I've been working on with city governments, but even councils.

So my neighborhood in London is called Camden.

It's about 250,000 people.