Mark Carney

His concern was that if we got too embroiled in Ukraine, we risked escalating tensions with Russia, which did have a vital interest in Ukraine. and he was not persuaded that we had a competing interest.

His concern was that if we got too embroiled in Ukraine, we risked escalating tensions with Russia, which did have a vital interest in Ukraine. and he was not persuaded that we had a competing interest.

I was actually on Air Force One traveling with President Obama around that time, and he came back to the press cabin and was speaking to us about his views about American foreign policy, and he raised this issue of questioning America's strategic interest in Ukraine. So this wasn't just something he was talking about behind closed doors. He was musing about it quite openly,

I was actually on Air Force One traveling with President Obama around that time, and he came back to the press cabin and was speaking to us about his views about American foreign policy, and he raised this issue of questioning America's strategic interest in Ukraine. So this wasn't just something he was talking about behind closed doors. He was musing about it quite openly,

and I think almost encouraging it to enter the bloodstream.

and I think almost encouraging it to enter the bloodstream.

It's just that for the first time, you had an American president openly questioning some of the underlying presumptions of this alliance.

It's just that for the first time, you had an American president openly questioning some of the underlying presumptions of this alliance.

Yes. And then that process accelerated and was supercharged.

Yes. And then that process accelerated and was supercharged.

When Donald Trump came to office for the first time in 2017.

When Donald Trump came to office for the first time in 2017.

And so throughout Trump's first term, you hear the president going after NATO in increasingly hostile terms. It helps them a hell of a lot more than it helps us. On his first visit to NATO headquarters in 2017, he's shocked by how lavish this new glass and steel building is. It costs more than a billion dollars. This is not fair to the people and taxpayers of the United States.

And so throughout Trump's first term, you hear the president going after NATO in increasingly hostile terms. It helps them a hell of a lot more than it helps us. On his first visit to NATO headquarters in 2017, he's shocked by how lavish this new glass and steel building is. It costs more than a billion dollars. This is not fair to the people and taxpayers of the United States.

Much of which is being picked up by the American taxpayer.

Much of which is being picked up by the American taxpayer.

But Trump's complaints go beyond that. He's really unhappy that none of the other NATO members, in his view, are meeting their defense spending obligations. Germany's paying 1%. We're paying 4%. Explain that one to me, right? He wants them to spend at least 2% of their gross domestic product on military spending, and very few of them are anywhere near that level.

But Trump's complaints go beyond that. He's really unhappy that none of the other NATO members, in his view, are meeting their defense spending obligations. Germany's paying 1%. We're paying 4%. Explain that one to me, right? He wants them to spend at least 2% of their gross domestic product on military spending, and very few of them are anywhere near that level.

And so there's this general complaint on Trump's part that this is an alliance of free riders.

And so there's this general complaint on Trump's part that this is an alliance of free riders.